Pages in topic:   < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29] >
一个英国人的汉译英试译(以此接得某大项目)
Thread poster: Alan Wang
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 22:40
Chinese to English
+ ...
1250型混捏成套设备 Apr 22, 2009

lai an wrote:

4 As far as my personal comments on the translations goes, I wonder whether 成套设备 should be translated as 'turn-key plant' or similar.



Lesley,

I agree with you. I also found the wording of the machine's name " The kneading equipment set ‘Model 1250’ ..." to be quite kludgy.

I would have translated it into "The Model 1250 mixer/kneader series ...", "The Model 1250 mixer/kneader equipment series ...", or something to that effect.


 
chica nueva
chica nueva
Local time: 15:40
Chinese to English
carbon anodes manufacture example; carbon paste; 成套设备 Apr 22, 2009

wherestip wrote:
Beats me, Lesley. Like I said previously, I know next to nothing about this field


Steve

1 Carbon anodes, Tiwai Point aluminium smelter: Here, on page 6 you can see a graphic which includes carbon-anodes manufacture from petroleum coke and pitch at the smelter:
http://www.riotinto.com/documents/ReportsPublications/2003comalco_nzas.pdf
This is what I am mostly familiar with. The anodes are consumables in the smelting process. You can see that they are made at the smelter. How does this differ from carbon-paste production I wonder.

2 Carbon paste: following on from this:
http://www.proz.com/forum/chinese/129475-一个英国人的汉译英试译(以此接得某大项目)-page23.html#1100798
SSH Trading.com link, here is more technical information on carbon paste:
http://www.elkemcarbon.com.cn/cpjs.htm
http://www.elkemcarbon.com.cn/En_cpjs.htm
可见 the paste is made in a 'stand-alone' plant, separate from the end-user. carbon-paste may be prepared for the end-user as 'cylinders' or 'briquettes'.
http://www.graphiteindia.com/carbon.htm
'green' paste or 'baked'; used in FeSi SiMn FeMn FeCr CalciumCarbide manufacture; nice order form here [ 又见:http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=2341713
The manufacture of continuous smelting electrodes from carbon-paste briquettes ]

3 陈涛设备:
@ Yueyin. I know a little about these carbon products from NZ's 'Think Big' projects of the early 80s, and I agree, 'turn-key' may not be suitable in this context (KudoZ discussion below).
@ Steve 成套设备: ‘Series’ 我已想到了,好像也可以把它翻成‘系列’(见下)。以您的理解在此地方‘1250型系列’与‘1250型XX成套设备’意思一样不一样?有没有‘某某型系列’之说法?本人感到成套设备是指一个'train'之类的包括几台机器的生产结构 (即arrangement of several component machines to handle the whole mixing/kneading process ... ,能不能跟‘Tederic 注塑机系列’比呢?(可见‘注塑机系列’之内也包括: 伺服节能注塑机系列、多色注塑机系列、高品质管件注塑机系列、PET制坯注塑机系列、多回路快速注塑机系列等系列。)
http://www.proz.com/kudoz/english_to_chinese/other/627853-turnkey_nature.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_Big
List of projects: a third reduction line at the Tiwai Point aluminium smelter, near Bluff
http://www.tederic-cn.com/new/product.asp?keyno=80
http://www.tederic-cn.com/english/product.asp?keyno=80

4 Google searching on 'ferroalloys electrode paste' is quite productive.

[Edited at 2009-04-23 01:15 GMT]


 
ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 22:40
English to Chinese
+ ...
成套设备 Apr 22, 2009

lai an wrote:

4 As far as my personal comments on the translations goes, I wonder whether 成套设备 should be translated as 'turn-key plant' or similar.

Leysley,

我同意 Steve 的译法。我认为“1250型混捏成套设备”还可译为 Model 1250 mixing/kneading unit。

许多人在翻译“成套设备”时比较喜欢用 set 或 “a complete set of equipment" 之类的说法。汉英词典也是如此说。但我多年来所遇到的西方商人和技术人员却很少这样说。

中国以前引进的很多大型成套工厂都是 'turn-key plant'。'turn-key plant' 确实有成套装置或成套设备的意思,但用在这里并不合适。
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turnkey
"A turn-key or a turn-key project is a type of project that is constructed by a developer and sold or turned over to a buyer in a ready to use condition."


 
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 22:40
Chinese to English
+ ...
unit/ensemble/series Apr 23, 2009

ysun wrote:

Leysley,

我同意 Steve 的译法。我认为“1250型混捏成套设备”还可译为 Model 1250 mixing/kneading unit。

许多人在翻译“成套设备”时比较喜欢用 set 或 “a complete set of equipment" 之类的说法。汉英词典也是如此说。但我多年来所遇到的西方商人和技术人员却很少这样说。



I agree, Yueyin. You'd often hear toolset, silverware set, dinette set, etc. etc. but not so much "equipment set".

Of course the terms "equipment set" and "a complete set of equipment" are totally understandable, and there are probably plenty of google hits for them.

For "成套设备", "equipment ensemble" or "machine ensemble" sounds a lot better to me.


 
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 22:40
Chinese to English
+ ...
What sounds good to me Apr 23, 2009

lai an wrote:

@ Steve 成套设备: ‘Series’ 我已想到了,好像也可以把它翻成‘系列’(见下)。以您的理解在此地方‘1250型系列’与‘1250型XX成套设备’意思一样不一样?有没有‘某某型系列’之说法?本人感到成套设备是指一个'train'之类的包括几台机器的生产结构 (即arrangement of several component machines to handle the whole mixing/kneading process ... ,能不能跟‘Tederic 注塑机系列’比呢?(可见‘注塑机系列’之内也包括: 伺服节能注塑机系列、多色注塑机系列、高品质管件注塑机系列、PET制坯注塑机系列、多回路快速注塑机系列等系列。)



Lesley,

I think there's a variety of ways to translate the Chinese term 成套设备, depending on the context.

For example, "an entire system", "an integrated manufacturing facility", "a total manufacturing solution", "a complete production line process" are some terms one can use in a broader, more general sense.

Otherwise, "a machine ensemble", "a machine cluster", "a machine series", "a set of machinery", or even "a set of production line equipment" would be fine.

I'm sure there are many more other choices of words that I haven't thought of.

BTW, "The Model 1250 kneading/mixing set of equipment ..." would have been perfectly fine with me for this specific translation. Even the way the translator had it, i.e., "The kneading equipment set ‘Model 1250’ ...", was okay too. Of course it took me a few times of reading through the whole sentence to figure out why the word "set" was there, and what exactly it was intended for



[Edited at 2009-04-24 13:31 GMT]


 
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 22:40
Chinese to English
+ ...
Representative Application Apr 24, 2009

lai an wrote:

Steve

1 Carbon anodes, Tiwai Point aluminium smelter: Here, on page 6 you can see a graphic which includes carbon-anodes manufacture from petroleum coke and pitch at the smelter:
http://www.riotinto.com/documents/ReportsPublications/2003comalco_nzas.pdf
This is what I am mostly familiar with. The anodes are consumables in the smelting process. You can see that they are made at the smelter. How does this differ from carbon-paste production I wonder.

2 Carbon paste: following on from this:
http://www.proz.com/forum/chinese/129475-一个英国人的汉译英试译(以此接得某大项目)-page23.html#1100798
SSH Trading.com link, here is more technical information on carbon paste:
http://www.elkemcarbon.com.cn/cpjs.htm
http://www.elkemcarbon.com.cn/En_cpjs.htm
可见 the paste is made in a 'stand-alone' plant, separate from the end-user. carbon-paste may be prepared for the end-user as 'cylinders' or 'briquettes'.
http://www.graphiteindia.com/carbon.htm
'green' paste or 'baked'; used in FeSi SiMn FeMn FeCr CalciumCarbide manufacture; nice order form here [ 又见:http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=2341713
The manufacture of continuous smelting electrodes from carbon-paste briquettes



Lesley,

Sorry about the slow response to the main content of your last post. It took me a while to click through the multiple links you provided. I think your research and a lot of the background information it produced are indeed directly related to the carbon paste mixing and kneading process.

The diagram on page 6 of the brochure of NZAS(New Zealand Aluminium Smelters) is a simplified flowchart that illustrates the aluminum smelting process. As shown, the two raw materials Petroleum Coke and Pitch combine and feed into what's called the "Anode Former"(I would think this is the same as the ACM, i.e., the "anode casting machine" that you and Yueyin identified previously). In my estimation this process in aluminum manufacturing must be very similar - if not exactly identical - to the carbon paste mixing and kneading process we've been discussing.


 
chica nueva
chica nueva
Local time: 15:40
Chinese to English
green-anode plant process/diagram; mixer-kneader jacket; 通 Apr 24, 2009

wherestip wrote:

The diagram on page 6 of the brochure of NZAS(New Zealand Aluminium Smelters) is a simplified flowchart that illustrates the aluminum smelting process. As shown, the two raw materials Petroleum Coke and Pitch combine and feed into what's called the "Anode Former"(I would think this is the same as the ACM, i.e., the "anode casting machine" that you and Yueyin identified previously). In my estimation this process in aluminum manufacturing must be very similar - if not exactly identical - to the carbon paste mixing and kneading process we've been discussing.



@ Kevin, Steve. Sorry about all the external links. I shall try to cut them down.

A Green-anode plant:
1 Yes, it seems quite like the first stage of the ‘pre-baked anodes’ production process described here:
a Aluminium: In the paste plants, carefully crushed and graded fractions of calcined petroleum coke and recycled anode butts are heated and mixed with molten pitch. ...(Google)
b The process of smelting in simple form: Petroleum coke and recycled carbon from used anodes are mixed with liquid pitch. This mixture is heated to 160°C until it forms a hot paste. ... (Google)
2 Here is a diagram of a 'green' (= unbaked) anode plant:
http://www.rd-carbon.com/pdf/changingworld.pdf
Fig 3 'state of the art' green anode plant
@ Yueyin. Do you think the text is describing the process in a green-anode plant?

B On specifics, the mixer/kneader jacket, 通:
双层结构的夹套内通温度180-280 ℃的循环使用的热导热油
Steve, are you still interested in this? I am a little unclear about this heat-exchange jacket. Does ‘通’ mean ‘connects to’ as in ‘connects to an external reservoir of’ heat-conducting oil? Is that your understanding of how it works? (如果大家已经谈过,就算了,不用再谈.)

[ Link to text: http://www.proz.com/forum/chinese/129475-一个英国人的汉译英试译(以此接得某大项目)-page21.html#1097353
Here is Yueyin's diagram of the jacket 液体或蒸汽夹套:
http://www.proz.com/forum/chinese/129475-一个英国人的汉译英试译(以此接得某大项目)-page24.html#1101155 ]

[Edited at 2009-04-25 08:35 GMT]


 
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 22:40
Chinese to English
+ ...
通 and 循环使用 Apr 25, 2009

lai an wrote:

B On specifics, the mixer/kneader jacket, 通:
双层结构的夹套内通温度180-280 ℃的循环使用的热导热油
Steve, are you still interested in this? I am a little unclear about this heat-exchange jacket. Does ‘通’ mean ‘connects to’ as in ‘connects to an external reservoir of’ heat-conducting oil? Is that your understanding of how it works? (如果大家已经谈过,就算了,不用再谈.)



Yes, that's exactly what the Chinese character 通 means. The jacket connects through a conduit to an external reservoir of heat-conducting oil, or thermal oil. The oil is therefore perhaps not only circulating through the heat-exchange jacket during each kneading operation, but more importantly is also recirculated and reused for multiple kneading operations.

My understanding of the original Chinese, is that thermal oil of varying temperatures is "circulated", or simply "supplied" at different stages of the kneading process, through a pipeline(or a couple of pipelines) into the heat-exchange jacket every time the carbon paste kneading operation is performed. Afterwards, the same oil is "circulated", or essentially, "repeatedly used", for more of the same operations. IMO that's what the combined Chinese words 循环使用 really implies in this context. To narrowly interpret the term "循环" as most of the translations have done is okay, but IMO not very accurate.



[Edited at 2009-04-26 01:26 GMT]


 
ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 22:40
English to Chinese
+ ...
about 通 and 循环使用 Apr 26, 2009

lai an wrote:

2 Here is a diagram of a 'green' (= unbaked) anode plant:
http://www.rd-carbon.com/pdf/changingworld.pdf
Fig 3 'state of the art' green anode plant
@ Yueyin. Do you think the text is describing the process in a green-anode plant?

Lesley,

I don’t think so. There may be some similarities, but there are many differences between the process as described in the Chinese text and the process as shown in Figure 3 from your link.

lai an wrote:

B On specifics, the mixer/kneader jacket, 通:
双层结构的夹套内通温度180-280 ℃的循环使用的热导热油
Steve, are you still interested in this? I am a little unclear about this heat-exchange jacket. Does ‘通’ mean ‘connects to’ as in ‘connects to an external reservoir of’ heat-conducting oil? Is that your understanding of how it works? (如果大家已经谈过,就算了,不用再谈.)

I agree with Steve’s explanation of ‘通'. Furthermore, '通' also means “charge with”, such as 通电, 通水, 通气, 通汽 and 通风. General speaking, in order to charge a device with something, you need to connect the device first to a source, such as a source of electricity, oil, water and the like.

通常,加热和冷却用的导热油系统都应该是循环系统。循环的目的一是为了提高传热效率(传热介质必须流动其传热效率才会高),二是为了节约导热油。热导热油从混捏腔夹套出来后由于其温度已降低,故必须经加热后才能再通入该夹套。同理,从冷却腔夹套出来的冷导热油则需经冷却后才能再通入冷却夹套。这种循环系统通常还包括储槽和泵以及适当的仪表控制系统。

[Edited at 2009-04-26 02:00 GMT]


 
chica nueva
chica nueva
Local time: 15:40
Chinese to English
Mixers, for mixing wet and dry; carbon processing (industrial applications); the ACM; 预混; 粉料 Apr 26, 2009

ysun wrote:
lai an wrote:
2 Here is a diagram of a 'green' (= unbaked) anode plant:
http://www.rd-carbon.com/pdf/changingworld.pdf
Fig 3 'state of the art' green anode plant
@ Yueyin. Do you think the text is describing the process in a green-anode plant?

Lesley,

I don’t think so. There may be some similarities, but there are many differences between the process as described in the Chinese text and the process as shown in Figure 3 from your link.


1 Oh dear. Well, I wonder, could the mixer be something like this Eirich 2-stage example, the EMC/IMC:
http://www.eirich.com/index.php?scriptlet=CMS/Content&id=83
http://www.eirich-china.com/index.php?scriptlet=CMS/Content&language=cn&id=83
Carbon bodies 炭素生产

2 Yueyin/Steve and anyone else, in your opinion,
A is the process described a stage in the manufacture of metallurgical paste, or electrodes, or some other carbon product, or is it impossible to tell. And
B do you think it is possible that the ACM is an 'Air Classifying Mill'-type grinder or pulveriser? http://www.sf-engg.net/crushing4.html Also, (from the same SF Engineering Works site),
C which of these 12 mixers is the one in the text most like? [ Mixing wet and dry: http://www.sf-engg.net/mixing1.html http://www.sf-engg.net/mixing2.html http://www.sf-engg.net/mixing3.html http://www.sf-engg.net/mixing4.html ] I note that India Carbon uses Sigma mixers in their production processes: http://www.indiacarbonltd.com/products.htm

3 'premix' and 'remix': 完成粉料加料后,预混物料、混捏物料。预混、混捏的工艺要求温度180-250℃。These references to 'premixing' puzzled me, but I suppose they make sense if the cooler is a 'remixer-cooler' as in the Eirich system. How do others understand 预混 in the text?:
[ http://www.eirich.com/index.php?id=83&cID=120&imageID=81&imageTitle=The%20Eirich%20mixing%20cascade%20(EMC)%20for%20outstanding%20compound%20quality%20and%20excellent%20cost%20effectiveness&dialogMode=popup ]

[ Terms:
A. charge (a battery) 充电 recharge (an aquifer) 补给
http://www.iciba.com/aquifer%20recharge/
B.,C. 配比、热导油: http://www.proz.com/forum/chinese/129475-一个英国人的汉译英试译(以此接得某大项目)-page21.html#1097458
recipe = eg (干料)配比(above)、处理程式; mixing ratio = 配合比 (Google) http://www.foodmate.net/english/speciality/117103.html
热导油 = heat-conducting oil, thermic fluid (India Carbon), thermal oil (wherestip)
D. 通-》连通: http://www.proz.com/kudoz/english_to_chinese/tourism_travel/2008862-adjoining_rooms.html
‘这是一间临街筒子房,通里屋的门关着’(吴金良,‘醉人的春夜’)(Google)]

4 The application/product: it must be here, somewhere:
http://www.carbonandgraphite.org/
ECGA European Carbon and Graphite Association
which products use 粉料 powders in their manufacture?

@ Yueyin.
1 Do you think 粉料 could be powders and/or grains, as in the 'silicon metal - electrodes - production scheme' example (ECGA site above)?
2 And, I wonder do you still think 粉料 is likely to be carbon-black powder?
3 and would ‘pitch’ be acceptable for 沥青, as well as ‘asphalt’? do you have a preference?

[Edited at 2009-04-26 22:41 GMT]


 
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 22:40
Chinese to English
+ ...
Heat Transfer Fluids Apr 26, 2009

lai an wrote:

2 Yueyin/Steve and anyone else, in your opinion,
A is the process described a stage in the manufacture of metallurgical paste, or electrodes, or some other carbon product, or is it impossible to tell. And
B do you think it is possible that the ACM is an 'Air Classifying Mill'-type grinder or pulveriser? http://www.sf-engg.net/crushing4.html Also, (from the same SF Engineering Works site) ...



Lesley,

I don't think we know enough from the limited text provided for the sample test to tell. But suffice it to say we all agree that the process involved is similar to the carbon anode production process used in aluminum smelting.

lai an wrote:

热导油 = heat-conducting oil, thermic oil (India Carbon), thermal oil (wherestip)



I actually didn't check the correct terminology before posting "thermal oil". I think Yueyin used the term in several of his posts.

Here's a couple of links that show the few alternative names typically used in the industry when referring to this product. I personally like the term "heat transfer fluid" the best, because it actually describes the product's function.



http://www.paratherm.com/_downloads/PreventFiresCP.pdf



Preventing Fires in Thermal Oil Heat-Transfer Systems




http://www.heat-transfer-fluid.com/



Since 1977 our goal has been to strive for constant innovation and improvement. Through years of ongoing R&D we are proud to offer the industry's most expansive line of Heat Transfer Fluids (also called Hot Oils, Thermic Oils or Thermal Fluids) as well as System Cleaners.







[Edited at 2009-04-26 17:21 GMT]


 
ysun
ysun  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 22:40
English to Chinese
+ ...
粉料 and 沥青 Apr 27, 2009

lai an wrote:

@ Yueyin.
1 Do you think 粉料 could be powders and/or grains, as in the 'silicon metal - electrodes - production scheme' example (ECGA site above)?
2 And, I wonder do you still think 粉料 is likely to be carbon-black powder?
3 and would ‘pitch’ be acceptable for 沥青, as well as ‘asphalt’? do you have a preference?

[Edited at 2009-04-26 22:41 GMT]


Lesley,

We only have very limited Chinese text and our discussion can only be based on what we have. We don’t know for sure what kind of 粉料 it is, and it will not make much sense to speculate too much about what kind of process it would look like. Different manufacturers may use different process for producing the same product.

As to the pitch, it usually refers to molten asphalt. Although the additional translated paragraphs mentioned "the asphalt melting pot”, we don’t have enough information to tell whether the asphalt fed into the mixer/kneader is in powder form or in molten form. However, one thing can be certain that sticky pitch is not suitable for the loss-in-weight scaling system. From one of the links you provided we can see that a volumetric metering device, not a LIW scale, is used for measuring the pitch. Nevertheless, according to the Chinese text, 沥青“需要称重”(the original text: 采用失重称量法把需要称重且符合工艺要求的粉料和沥青,按照要求的配比比例加入到混捏机的混捏腔内).

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pitch
Pitch - Any of various thick, dark, sticky substances obtained from the distillation residue of coal tar, wood tar, or petroleum and used for waterproofing, roofing, caulking, and paving.

[Edited at 2009-04-28 15:19 GMT]


 
chica nueva
chica nueva
Local time: 15:40
Chinese to English
'pitch' (vs 'asphalt, bitumen, tar') Apr 29, 2009

Yueyin

Thank you for the above link.
In this particular industrial context, I think I prefer the Thesaurus entry 6.: 'pitch - any of various dark heavy viscid substances obtained as a residue'.

contexts and associations 语境与含义:'pitch' is a very old word in English known to me in the context of 'caulking'. 'Noah sealed the ark with pitch.' And to me, bitumen (and tar) are used in building-papers and the like, for waterproofing, etc. As for 'asphalt' an
... See more
Yueyin

Thank you for the above link.
In this particular industrial context, I think I prefer the Thesaurus entry 6.: 'pitch - any of various dark heavy viscid substances obtained as a residue'.

contexts and associations 语境与含义:'pitch' is a very old word in English known to me in the context of 'caulking'. 'Noah sealed the ark with pitch.' And to me, bitumen (and tar) are used in building-papers and the like, for waterproofing, etc. As for 'asphalt' and 'bitumen', these are generally understood in the context of roading etc. As children, at school, we play on 'the asphalt' or on 'the grass', and in the summer, on very hot days, the 'bitumen' on the roads melts.
These associations are reflected in the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary entries:
asphalt = a black sticky substance mixed with small stones or sand, which forms a strong surface when it hardens
asphalt = to cover something, typically a roof or road, with asphalt eg an asphalted road, pitch, court
bitumen = a black sticky substance such as tar or asphalt,used for making roads and roofs
pitch = a thick black substance which was used in the past to make wooden ships and buildings waterproof

BTW, it seems, according to this link, that industrial pitch (eg electrode pitch, binder pitch) can be granulated: ‘All qualities of pitch can be transformed into small solid granules, which are very interesting for transportation and easy to melt.’
http://209.85.173.132/search?q=cache:mpsWPUrrHbsJ:www.litwin.fr/public/Expertise/Expertise-in-carbochemical.html%20pitch%20granules&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk
Carbochemical Processes: Pitches treatment and granulation

[This post reminds me of the famous 'Uncle Remus' story, 'Brer Rabbit and the Tar-baby' ]


[Edited at 2009-04-29 02:12 GMT]
Collapse


 
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 22:40
Chinese to English
+ ...
Brer Bear, Brer Fox, and Brer Rabbit Apr 29, 2009

lai an wrote:


[This post reminds me of the famous 'Uncle Remus' story, 'Brer Rabbit and the Tar-baby' ]



Zip-a-dee-doo-dah, zip-a-dee-yay
My, oh my, what a wonderful day ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFHE9-JcC84


 
wherestip
wherestip  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 22:40
Chinese to English
+ ...
Song of the South Apr 29, 2009

Lesley,

I think to know this Disney film, one has to be from the baby-boom generation.

The younger folks most likely haven't the foggiest who Uncle Remus was.


http://www.songofthesouth.net/



[Edited at 2009-04-29 12:13 GMT]


 
Pages in topic:   < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29] >


To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator:


You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request »

一个英国人的汉译英试译(以此接得某大项目)






Trados Business Manager Lite
Create customer quotes and invoices from within Trados Studio

Trados Business Manager Lite helps to simplify and speed up some of the daily tasks, such as invoicing and reporting, associated with running your freelance translation business.

More info »
Pastey
Your smart companion app

Pastey is an innovative desktop application that bridges the gap between human expertise and artificial intelligence. With intuitive keyboard shortcuts, Pastey transforms your source text into AI-powered draft translations.

Find out more »