| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] > | Train of thoughts during translation 投稿者: Bojan Keevill
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| Transferring source without being slavish | May 3, 2018 |
Well, I agree with Mr. Konashenok. Initially, my reaction to this topic was exactly like Miss. Misha's but then I remembered I do have thoughts running around in my head while translating, so here goes. First and foremost, I have to get the gist of the text which machine translation does not do, so the difficult parts become clearer, or generally speaking. Then while translating, my preoccupation is how to transfer the material of the source text which is, more often than not, badly written or w... See more Well, I agree with Mr. Konashenok. Initially, my reaction to this topic was exactly like Miss. Misha's but then I remembered I do have thoughts running around in my head while translating, so here goes. First and foremost, I have to get the gist of the text which machine translation does not do, so the difficult parts become clearer, or generally speaking. Then while translating, my preoccupation is how to transfer the material of the source text which is, more often than not, badly written or written with a great deal of superfluous, unnecessary words (some just for repetition but they are utterly confusing) and produce something that is legible and easy to understand without leaving anything out from the source text or adding to it. This applies at least in some of my language pairs and in Italian (notorious) or some of the texts I receive.
May I add I particularly liked Kay Denney's contribution. ▲ Collapse
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This is an interesting topic.
The difference between what a CAT tool (or MT) does and what I do, when translating, is that I am thinking.
What is thinking? Without getting all philosophical about it, thinking is a multifarious, omnidirectional, intersecting process that includes association, intuition, etc. all going on at the same time, at a faster speed than anything any computer will ever be able to emulate.
But the big difference is that I am also *fee... See more This is an interesting topic.
The difference between what a CAT tool (or MT) does and what I do, when translating, is that I am thinking.
What is thinking? Without getting all philosophical about it, thinking is a multifarious, omnidirectional, intersecting process that includes association, intuition, etc. all going on at the same time, at a faster speed than anything any computer will ever be able to emulate.
But the big difference is that I am also *feeling* as I think. What I am thinking cannot be dissociated from what I am feeling.
And like thinking, feeling is also a many-sided thing.
There is another big difference: a computer programme, or an algorhythm or whatever it is, is merely performing a task with no end user in mind.
When I translate, I have *communication* in mind. I want the end user, whoever they are, to *understand*.
[Edited at 2018-05-03 09:11 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Bojan Keevill wrote:
Kay!
That was lovely. I felt as if I were riding shotgun. Placing the pun you had recognized to simmer on the back burner was a classic move, I wonder what magic happens back there while our eyes are trained on the road ahead? Your justifying negotiation of the right term was priceless and familiar.
Thanks so much!
May I quote you?
Kind regards,
Bojan
Sure, I'd be honoured! Could you send me a copy of your essay once you've finished it?
I would love to know what goes on in my brain when I put stuff on the back burner like that. I've seen that it really is the best way to deal with anything that doesn't pop straightaway into my thoughts. Especially if I can sleep on it, then the next day words just flow whereas the day before they were stumbling.
Once my boss quibbled a word in an in-house translation. I said, you're right, it's not exactly what you mean. But I don't know that there's a word that does mean that.
Then I woke in the middle of the night and the exact right word was just there, in my neo cortex. I rushed to see the boss the next day to tell him. He didn't want to pay me overtime for "working" in the middle of the night though!
[Edited at 2018-05-03 09:42 GMT]
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Josephine Cassar wrote:
May I add I particularly liked Kay Denney's contribution.
thank you! it started out tongue-in-cheek, but ended up being useful, who'd have thunk it?!
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| Who'da thunk it? | May 3, 2018 |
Thanks Kay. You're funny. Post some more funny stuff.
| | | | | Then I'm not the only one | May 3, 2018 |
Kay Denney wrote: Once my boss quibbled a word in an in-house translation. I said, you're right, it's not exactly what you mean. But I don't know that there's a word that does mean that. Then I woke in the middle of the night and the exact right word was just there, in my neo cortex. I rushed to see the boss the next day to tell him. He didn't want to pay me overtime for "working" in the middle of the night though! [Edited at 2018-05-03 09:42 GMT]
I do that as well. Strange how the brain goes into over-drive at night when I come up with the best solutions that escape me by day.
I just love your sense of humour. Missing here, so extremely welcome. Stick to it.
| | | | Bojan Keevill
スロベニア
Local time: 07:13
スロヴェニア語 から 英語
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TOPIC STARTER | Knowledge for its own sake | May 3, 2018 |
Perhaps part of the difficulty here is that the quest is basic, as Mr. Fossey has opined "the topic goes right to the core of the translation process" -- whatever that may be.
In recent translations of interviews given by scientists who have received project funding from the ERC, I read near desperation in statements, telling that common people tend not to understand the relevance of basic science, the purpose of which is very similar to that of philosophy; the acquisition of knowle... See more Perhaps part of the difficulty here is that the quest is basic, as Mr. Fossey has opined "the topic goes right to the core of the translation process" -- whatever that may be.
In recent translations of interviews given by scientists who have received project funding from the ERC, I read near desperation in statements, telling that common people tend not to understand the relevance of basic science, the purpose of which is very similar to that of philosophy; the acquisition of knowledge for its own sake, simply for the love of knowledge.
Is the acquisition of knowledge for its own sake a waste of time? Has 'philosophizing' become a derogatory verb?
The practical application of knowledge (applied science) makes good common sense, particularly in modernity, as research is largely funded by the state through taxation rather than by independently wealthy and educated individuals, as was the case in the past.
Hydrodynamic knowledge is useful if applied to industrial valves that do not close properly. One might say it is a public commodity, a common good, and thus worth some taxing effort. However, throwing public money at someone's fascination of jellyfish motility seems much less reasonable. Yet the latter fascination rendered knowledge that was applied to remediate the function of leaky industrial valves.
We cannot and must not attempt to assume that the fiddle I am twiddling here will better our translations in any reasonable or practical manner. Quite simply, I hope to use your various and diversely inspiring remarks to help form an argument, even if only a vague one, for the indispensability of minds.
I trust that the indispensability of minds for meaningful translation is as obvious as the fact that jellyfish are motile in water.
The question is how?
Kind regards,
Bojan ▲ Collapse
| | | | Bojan Keevill
スロベニア
Local time: 07:13
スロヴェニア語 から 英語
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Hello Kay,
"Sure, I'd be honoured! Could you send me a copy of your essay once you've finished it?"
Gladly! It may take a while...
Sleeping works wonders, walking too, and baths! -- as per Archimedean eurika!
I have read that any kind of mundane activity facilitates divergent thinking. The trick seems to be not to focus on the task at hand
[Edited at 2018-05-03 12:04 GMT]
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| Translators cs. Bilinguals | May 3, 2018 |
Five years ago I celebrated four decades since my first professional (i.e. paid) translation. I took the chance to look back and try to summarize the most essential lesson I had learned in this meantime, and got this:
A bilingual person is someone capable of expressing their own ideas in two different languages; a translator is a professional trained and qualified to faithfully and accurately express someone else's ideas in a language different from the one in which they were originally issued.
It accurately describes my status:
I am a professional translator between EN (US as target) < > PT (BR as target).
I am merely multilingual in IT/FR/ES, meaning that I can understand, as well as express my own ideas in these latter three languages, however I am unable to reliably express anyone else's ideas in them.
It also explains my train of thoughts during translation:
Step 1. Read the source phrase, segment, paragraph, whatever to completely grasp the writer's idea. This includes researching for any unfamiliar, unknown or otherwise uncanny words or expressions, as well as continuously getting the 'tone' or 'style'.
Step 2. Write that idea as I would naturally state it in the target language, imparting a culturally equivalent 'tone' or 'style'. If there is any redundancy or curtness for no apparent reason, fix it!
It may seem a complex process as described, however it is instantaneous and natural.
The side effect of its being natural for so many years is that I am unable to watch a subtitled movie without proofreading the translation. If I don't understand the source language, I have to deliberately refrain from learning some words in it. If it's dubbed, I have to deliberately refrain from back-translating.
On being a natural process, I recall the days when I was 14, and my father was teaching me to drive. His car had a manual transmission. One of the early things he told me about handling the gearshift was, "If, eventually, when I ask you 'What gear speed are you using now?', you have to look at the lever position, it will mean that you are driving naturally. You'll intuitively grasp the situation, and use the proper gear, without associating it to a gear speed number." Probably this explains why I move among 3-4-5-speed and automatic transmission vehicles without ever getting confused.
The process I use for reviewing - particularly on long texts, like books - reveals another interesting facet. As I translate, I must stay loyal to the original author. However upon reviewing, I shift my loyalty to the reader instead. I check:
- Does reading this flow naturally for me, in this language ?
- Am I getting the original idea and tone? (I have the ideas - not the source text - in my mind.)
It is always interesting to scrutinize the processes used so naturally by our brain. I guess this must be how the first calculators were developed.
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José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
....when I was 14, and my father was teaching me to drive. His car had a manual transmission. One of the early things he told me about handling the gearshift was, [i]"If, eventually, when I ask you 'What gear speed are you using now?', you have to look at the lever position, it will mean that you are driving naturally.
You shouldn't need to look at the gearshift. You should know which gear you're in by how the car is behaving and what the road conditions are. If you look down to see what gear you're in, because you don't know, you might crash into something!
| | | | Bojan Keevill
スロベニア
Local time: 07:13
スロヴェニア語 から 英語
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | What gear speed are you using now? | May 3, 2018 |
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
... a translator ... faithfully and accurately express someone else's ideas in a language different from the one in which they were originally issued.
Train of thoughts:
- grasp the author's idea
- write that idea naturally and fix it if necessary
- stay loyal to the original author, then shift loyalty to the reader
- check
- have the ideas, not the source text, in mind
It is always interesting to scrutinize the processes used so naturally by our brain. I guess this must be how the first calculators were developed.
This was very clear, thank you very much!
If you agree, I would like to use some of your ideas and words as I write my essay.
Some notes:
I drive a 22 year-old car, a 36 year-old motorcycle and a 41 year-old moped, They all have five gears - I installed the fifth into the moped with help from a friend. Interestingly, I do not pay much attention to their speedometers. The moped has none and the motorcycle's is inaccurate by about 20 Km/h. Rather, I listen to and feel their engines (rpm and vibration) - each machine has its own 'sweet spot'. As you have said, it feels natural - almost reflexive.
Mr. Lamensdorf, you may be an 'aspie'. This is sweet term for Asperger's syndrome, which, as far as I am concerned is part of the HFA spectrum.
I have accepted HFA as part of who I am, as the literature describing it, vague though it is, has allowed me to justify my own 'crutches', such as 'deliberately refraining from learning some words', 'deliberately refraining from back-translating' and 'watching subtitled films without proofreading' - how very annoying these can be!
More difficult though, for me at least, is refraining from proofreading people during casual conversations, which are not as predictable as most recorded formats. People do not like being proofread! I gave up my Facebook account almost eight years ago after about four years of use because the cons were clearly outweighing the pros - I do not miss it. More formal social media, such as our current forum, or the MOOCs that I periodically follow seem a kind of middle ground - somewhat predictable like recorded media, but also somewhat fluid like casual conversations. This middle-way suits me better.
I fear that I have said too much.
Thanks again for your valuable insights.
Kind regards,
Bojan
| | | | Roisin Ni Cheallaigh (X)
アイルランド
英語 から アイルランド語
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| Train of thoughts during translation | May 3, 2018 |
It is hard to keep your thoughts in order while translating a document(s), because it can get very tedious.
You would have to be very interested in the subject matter to continue translating the document.
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Roisin Ni Cheallaigh (X)
アイルランド
英語 から アイルランド語
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| bilingualism/trilingualism | May 3, 2018 |
Bilingualism or multilingualism is very good for a translator, because it increases language skills.
| | | | | You missed the point | May 3, 2018 |
Tom in London wrote: José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote:
....when I was 14, and my father was teaching me to drive. His car had a manual transmission. One of the early things he told me about handling the gearshift was, [i]"If, eventually, when I ask you 'What gear speed are you using now?', you have to look at the lever position, it will mean that you are driving naturally.
You shouldn't need to look at the gearshift. You should know which gear you're in by how the car is behaving and what the road conditions are. If you look down to see what gear you're in, because you don't know, you might crash into something!
Of course, for safety, you shouldn't LOOK at anything else than the road and the traffic. The point is that driving 'naturally', I won't be able to tell you right away - without thinking - whether I'm on 2nd in a 3-speed car, or in 3rd in a 4- or 5-speed car. The gear speed number is irrelevant. I'll be merely using the proper gear all the time, regardless, and will know when it's time to shift up or down.
(It's probably the reason why the only time I absolutely demanded an automatic transmission was when I went to England. My left hand is definitely not 'trained' to shift gears. This would add to my troubles in driving from the passenger's seat and keeping the car on the 'wrong' lane. Thank goodness Brits don't have the throttle pedal positioned for the left foot.)
I am an EN-PT translator, and my wife is an ESL teacher for PT speakers, same pair.
Strict house policy: I don't teach; she doesn't translate.
Now and then she asks me, "Why do we say ... and not ... ?"
Of course, she must know and explain the grammar rules, so her students can learn and eventually internalize them. Quite often, I can give her a bunch of related examples, however I don't recall the rule itself any more.
| | | | Roisin Ni Cheallaigh (X)
アイルランド
英語 から アイルランド語
+ ...
| Train of thoughts during translation | May 3, 2018 |
You have to read the document 2 or 3 times to just get the meaning.
You have to find the end of every sentence in English to start every sentence other languages.
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