| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8] > | Second opinion needed on grammar Thread poster: Mirella Biagi
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| Declare and Sheila's KISS | Nov 21, 2013 |
Michele Fauble wrote: 'Declare' takes a 'that' clause, not an infinitive clause.
After trying to pin down why I just "know" that "declare to have understood" is "wrong", I now circle back to what Michele said, and second the motion.
We simply do not say "declare to" where "to" is a participle of the infinitive form. We also don't say "states to (have done)" or "asserts to (have done)". As Michele says, they just don't take an infinitive, even a perfect infinitive.
| | | | Giles Watson 
Italy
Local time: 20:12
Italian to English
In memoriam | Facts, opinions and agendas | Nov 21, 2013 |
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz wrote:
Facts are never cited in the abstract, Giles. The purpose is very clear from the context, and the absence of any express comment is merely a technical distinction. When you mention the quality of being a native speaker alone and without any clarification, it very clearly conveys that according to you it's a very relevant distinction that probably trumps the importance of other distinctions and doesn't need explaining. In which case it takes neither rocket science nor mere speculation to arrive at what I said. Let's not give technicalities more weight than they deserve.
Hi again Łukasz. The facts I remarked upon were certainly not "cited in the abstract" (I'm more of an empiricist anyway). They were intended to make a point about a specific non-standard grammatical construction calqued into English from other languages.
Tomás saw the relevance of the lists at once. If you choose to ignore it, I can only suppose that you - as a non-native translator into English - might have some other agenda 
Don't worry about it, though. I know all about the importance of subject proficiency in translation, believe me.
| | | | Kirsten Bodart
United Kingdom
Local time: 20:12
Dutch to English
+ ...
| I beg to differ | Nov 21, 2013 |
Giles Watson wrote:
So far, in favour of the "declares to have understood" option we have:
Sergei
Paulinho
finnword
Aruna
Daina
Kirsten
Tomás
and against are:
Bina
Spencer
Victoria
sheila
Janet
Christine
Phil
Giles
Petro2
Oliver
Neilmac
Michele
In the first group, only Kirsten and Aruna translate into English while the second group comprises only native English speakers. I leave you to draw your own conclusions.
[Edited at 2013-11-21 06:31 GMT]
I said it wasn't incorrect, as my husband did yesterday as well, 'but,' he said, 'I would use the second because that's clearer.' That's exactly what I thought. 'Declares to have understood' is not wrong, but it's unclear. Therefore I would never use it in a formal context like legal. In a newspaper article maybe (adn then we would probably find a more stylish solution).
And I said that from the beginning (unless I forgot something), so no, you annot draw your conclusions.
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:12
Member (2008)
Italian to English
| My responses | Nov 21, 2013 |
The Agent declares to have understood... WRONG IN ALL CIRCUMSTANCES
The Agent declares that he has understood... CORRECT IF THE AGENT IS MALE
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Václav Pinkava
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:12
Czech to English
+ ...
Firstly, thank you Giles, for taking me off the wrong side of your list.
Secondly, thanks to everyone, particularly Łukasz and Janet for a most interesting debate (far short of terse though it is, to coin a phrase).
It left me curious as to why I personally do not have a semantic problem with "XY declares to have understood". I conclude it is because I spontaneously read it to mean "XY declares her/him/themselves to have understood". The phrase is just in shortened leg... See more Firstly, thank you Giles, for taking me off the wrong side of your list.
Secondly, thanks to everyone, particularly Łukasz and Janet for a most interesting debate (far short of terse though it is, to coin a phrase).
It left me curious as to why I personally do not have a semantic problem with "XY declares to have understood". I conclude it is because I spontaneously read it to mean "XY declares her/him/themselves to have understood". The phrase is just in shortened legalese. In a legal context, declaring is not just any old statement, (see Janet's contribution), and you can only declare personally.
.........................................................................................................................................
On the peripheral subject of native speaker prowess, none of us are "born speakers" of any language except waaaah. We are born into a linguistic environment. For some of us, like me, entering the given environment happens a few years after birth, still in childhood. For the exceptionally gifted, even immersion in adulthood will do. The point being, how sound and rich is the linguistic environment in which we have the option to pick up the language, what is our inherent "picking up" ability and our own willingness to extend our horizons. Opportunity, ability, and will (if you will). English is a language too vast to ever stop learning.
(For me, the litmus test of a typical English native speaker is whether s/he struggles with I/me and its/it's - present company excepted, naturally ) ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I didn't know | Nov 21, 2013 |
That it was a matter of taking sides. I personally feel that both are correct. So in which am I?
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 20:12
French to English
Václav Pinkava wrote:
(For me, the litmus test of a typical English native speaker is whether s/he struggles with I/me and its/it's - present company excepted, naturally )
We're getting off topic again but your litmus test would exclude my late father from the native English speaker group and honestly, this was a guy whose Englishness simply oozed out of him, even when nonchalantly breaking the end of his baguette off on the way home from the bakery
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 20:12
French to English
| Sheila's KISS | Nov 21, 2013 |
I just love KISS, and I wish my clients would adopt it too!
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| Post removed: This post was hidden by a moderator or staff member for the following reason: Content deleted by poster. | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:12
Hebrew to English
| UCL study... | Nov 21, 2013 |
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/english-usage/projects/verb-phrase/perf-findings.htm
I thought the above was quite interesting, regarding the sharp decline in the use of the perfect infinitive in British English. Of the uses in the corpus, 88% follow modal auxiliaries (rather than "to").
This, combined with the fact that, as noted by others, the ve... See more http://www.ucl.ac.uk/english-usage/projects/verb-phrase/perf-findings.htm
I thought the above was quite interesting, regarding the sharp decline in the use of the perfect infinitive in British English. Of the uses in the corpus, 88% follow modal auxiliaries (rather than "to").
This, combined with the fact that, as noted by others, the verb "declare" usually takes/collocates with a that-clause, would probably push me to the second option, or something similar.
[Edited at 2013-11-21 13:56 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Václav Pinkava
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:12
Czech to English
+ ...
| The topic being grammar | Nov 21, 2013 |
...
Texte Style wrote:
We're getting off topic again but your litmus test would exclude my late father from the native English speaker group and honestly, this was a guy whose Englishness simply oozed out of him, even when nonchalantly breaking the end of his baguette off on the way home from the bakery
"For the avoidance of doubt" (as lawyers would say) I meant that native speakers are the ones who tend to get their own language wrong, in some group-speak way, which eventually becomes the new norm.
"Between you and I, its bafflingly reliable, as a test."
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:12
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Václav Pinkava wrote:
"Between you and I......"
No - that will always be wrong.
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| What about ... | Nov 21, 2013 |
"The Agent declares that ... has been understood." (If it is standard usage in English contracts to avoid "he" to mean "he or she." This also avoids any difficulties with an "it" agent, such as a company.)
I don't think that I have ever heard anyone say or seen anyone write "declare + infininitive" before. That sounds bizarrely and entirely wrong to me (an American with only a smattering of English Legalese).
General usage only seems to allow:
declare that + independent ... See more "The Agent declares that ... has been understood." (If it is standard usage in English contracts to avoid "he" to mean "he or she." This also avoids any difficulties with an "it" agent, such as a company.)
I don't think that I have ever heard anyone say or seen anyone write "declare + infininitive" before. That sounds bizarrely and entirely wrong to me (an American with only a smattering of English Legalese).
General usage only seems to allow:
declare that + independent clause (including subject and verb): We declared that we were not satisfied.
declare + noun: We declared our dissatisfaction. (Although, this sounds strange to me: I would normally use a different verb or an independent clause here ... "We declared our goods," is an unrelated example [transitive verb based on another meaning of "to declare"].)
However, if I think about it, there definitely is a third construction: "I (hereby) declare myself to be ..." - but this only works with a reflexive pronoun and with the infinitive "to be."
For me, the construction "declare + infinitive" simply doesn't exist in English - however, I would not be shocked if it shows up in English contracts.
And regarding declarations of will in English: We all regularly sign T&Cs for Software updates, using websites, etc. Isn't the standard English phrasing simply: "I have read and understood ..."? Does saying "I declare that ..." add anything to this declaration?
[Edited at 2013-11-21 14:56 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 20:12
French to English
Tom in London wrote: Václav Pinkava wrote:
"Between you and I......" No - that will always be wrong.
Tom I think this is Václav's little joke, he means that only native speakers make that specific mistake...
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 20:12
French to English
| Thank you Michael | Nov 21, 2013 |
Michael Wetzel wrote:
And regarding declarations of will in English: We all regularly sign T&Cs for Software updates, using websites, etc. Isn't the standard English phrasing simply: "I have read and understood ..."? Does saying "I declare that ..." add anything to this declaration?
[Edited at 2013-11-21 14:56 GMT]
Yup.
You just hit the nail right on the head.
We can apply both Sheila's KISS and another firm favourite of mine CTC (cut the cr@p) and simply leave it out.
No need to translate something that English people simply do not say!!!
Like if you had to translate a form into French where women have to tick one of Mrs Miss Ms: there's no equivalent of Ms in French so you simply leave it out.
I see I have used the word simply three times which offends my sense of style, but it does convey just how very simple the solution is!
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