| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | Is there a fierce competition between translators? Thread poster: Tomedes
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| My biggest competitor... | Aug 9, 2013 |
... is my wife. I work ES>EN and she does EN>ES, but that doesn't stop us from seeing who can translate better or faster. Loser washes the dishes.
| | | | Nicole Schnell 
United States
Local time: 19:15
English to German
+ ...
In memoriam | Indeed, they are. | Aug 9, 2013 |
Marie-Helene Dubois wrote:
Translators are a fine bunch of people (generally).
| | | | John Fossey
Canada
Local time: 22:15
Member (2008)
French to English
+ ...
Personally, I'm not aware of any competition at all.
I'm not aware of anyone else who has the same combination of language pair and direction, industry specialization, and other reasons why I serve the particular clients I do.
| | | | | Survivorship bias | Aug 9, 2013 |
Don't make the mistake of only polling those who're willing to be polled.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias
The competition IS fierce, otherwise we would all be making the same money as bankers, lawyers and doctors. And yes, this opinion comes from an established, well-paid, highly-productive translator.
[Edited at 2013-08-09 10:50 GMT]
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John Fossey
Canada
Local time: 22:15
Member (2008)
French to English
+ ...
Mikhail Kropotov wrote:
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The competition IS fierce, otherwise we would all be making the same money as bankers, lawyers and doctors.
The key word here is all. No way would all translators ever earn the same as bankers, lawyers and doctors, ability comes into play as well.
However, some come pretty close.
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Phil Hand wrote:
Many people on Proz, including me, have noticed that an agency will send out an email asking if anyone can take a job, and if you don't reply within a few minutes, it will likely have been snapped up by someone else.
Particularly Chinese agencies, and which I never work for.
| | | | | Fierce competition at the bottom; strong collaboration at the top | Aug 9, 2013 |
I can definitely see fierce competition at the bottom, say USD 5¢/word rates and lower, since these translators are struggling for survival. The only benefit they offer is delivering 'human' translation in most cases, yet their quality is mostly equivalent to free online immediate machine translation.
These cheap translators fight each other in every reverse auction they see involving their language pairs, and they will often give additional discounts on their bids, as long as they... See more I can definitely see fierce competition at the bottom, say USD 5¢/word rates and lower, since these translators are struggling for survival. The only benefit they offer is delivering 'human' translation in most cases, yet their quality is mostly equivalent to free online immediate machine translation.
These cheap translators fight each other in every reverse auction they see involving their language pairs, and they will often give additional discounts on their bids, as long as they can grab an assignment, any assignment.
At the top, the cut level in $ depending on the language pair, there is a lot of collaboration. Most translators there have their own database of reliable colleagues, and they'll quickly share a job larger than they can chew among a number of high level translators to keep their client served.
At the top there is also a lot of networking. If any translator at this level is offered a job requiring skills they don't have, they'll refer the client immediately to a colleague they know who is a specialist in that. And this is seldom reciprocal. One translator will refer specialty jobs to one or more specialists in their network, and that entire network will refer jobs to that translator in their very specialty.
Prices at this level don't vary much, and the savvy client knows that when they find the right specialist, this professional will have their preset rates and high quality standards, no point in trying to impose rates or haggling over discounts.
Between one and the other, there is a gray area, where anything may happen. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Adam Łobatiuk
Poland
Local time: 04:15
Member (2009)
English to Polish
+ ...
| Competition at the LQA level | Aug 9, 2013 |
While I don't notice a lot of competition among translators in my language pair, it can be really fierce and ugly when it comes to anonymous LQA reviews. Preferential issues become minor ones and minor ones — major, which results in a 'fail'. There are also dirty tricks like classifying issues as errors without any reference to reputable sources, and you end up wasting time trying to find references yourself. Or completely phony 'errors' are listed hoping that the translator gives up defending... See more While I don't notice a lot of competition among translators in my language pair, it can be really fierce and ugly when it comes to anonymous LQA reviews. Preferential issues become minor ones and minor ones — major, which results in a 'fail'. There are also dirty tricks like classifying issues as errors without any reference to reputable sources, and you end up wasting time trying to find references yourself. Or completely phony 'errors' are listed hoping that the translator gives up defending his choices or fails to.
Some LQA (or LQI, whatever) reviews are done by competing agencies and that's when it's the worst. A lot of people and companies aren't mature enough to realize that they aren't hired to kill off their competitors and that there will always be someone to take over. Or, that they will probably never get the translation jobs they review, because their clients need both translators and reviewers. Translation and LQA are services that should ensure good quality for the client and should be done in a professional, constructive manner. ▲ Collapse
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Phil Hand
China
Local time: 10:15
Chinese to English
| Since when did competition become a dirty word?! | Aug 9, 2013 |
I'm a bit bemused by the answers given here. I get the sense that a lot of people seem to think that competition is bad in some way. "Those other people may be competing, but I'm certainly not doing such a vulgar thing!"
Competition is a fine and healthy thing. If you think you're not competing, you're simply wrong (e.g. John - you may not personally know any other translators doing similar work to you, but they undoubtedly exist).
Perhaps it's because when we think of... See more I'm a bit bemused by the answers given here. I get the sense that a lot of people seem to think that competition is bad in some way. "Those other people may be competing, but I'm certainly not doing such a vulgar thing!"
Competition is a fine and healthy thing. If you think you're not competing, you're simply wrong (e.g. John - you may not personally know any other translators doing similar work to you, but they undoubtedly exist).
Perhaps it's because when we think of competition, we often think immediately of *price* competition - of undercutting other good translators and undermining our profession. But one can equally well compete on quality and service - and I'm sure we'd all agree that we work constantly to keep our quality up.
The other thing is that competition doesn't necessarily have to be negative or zero-sum. Adam listed "dirty tricks," and while that is one form of competition, I suppose, there are lots of positive kinds as well. Personally, on the rare occasions that I do proofreading, I try to compete by working well with my translation partner. There's nothing clients like better than translators who play nicely together, so I try to make that my schtick (though I occasionally have to grind my teeth as I do it!).
And finally, I'm sure we all like to think of ourselves as unique, irreplaceable little fairies, shining with our own light. But we're not. We're each of us cogs in bigger processes, and we can be (and are) replaced at a moment's notice.
Anyway, rant over. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | It's about FIERCE competition | Aug 9, 2013 |
Phil Hand wrote:
Since when did competition become a dirty word?!
I'm a bit bemused by the answers given here. I get the sense that a lot of people seem to think that competition is bad in some way. "Those other people may be competing, but I'm certainly not doing such a vulgar thing!"
Phil,
There is the 'healthy' competition, which drives us to keep our skills shining and prevents our rates from reaching the stars. No problem with that.
The issue here is about fierce competition, people trying to underbid everyone in a reverse auction, just to grab that darn job, whatever it is, by all means! No concern for whether they'll actually be able to do it properly, nor for whether doing it will be at all worthwhile.
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 10:15
Chinese to English
| Yeah, fair enough | Aug 9, 2013 |
I think I have slightly different connotations for both those words, though. To me, fierce isn't a particularly negative word, and the combination with "competition" doesn't make for a negative phrase. I think of myself as a fierce competitor (er, when I've had enough coffee, at least!) without compromising on quality.
But I take your point, there's competition that benefits us as an industry, and competition that harms us as an industry. I think that both types are going on pretty ... See more I think I have slightly different connotations for both those words, though. To me, fierce isn't a particularly negative word, and the combination with "competition" doesn't make for a negative phrase. I think of myself as a fierce competitor (er, when I've had enough coffee, at least!) without compromising on quality.
But I take your point, there's competition that benefits us as an industry, and competition that harms us as an industry. I think that both types are going on pretty fiercely all the time.
Just as another example, think of the relatively high uptake of CATs now. Not everyone uses CAT all the time, but a lot do. And they help us to go faster and be more consistent. Others use voice recognition technology. And the range of dictionaries we all have access to has exploded. I'd say we compete very hard on technology, and that's a mainly positive thing. ▲ Collapse
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owhisonant wrote:
All very well said, sir, however: cave idus martiat!
Thank you, sir. The 'Republic' will reward your kindness once the empire's up.
Adam Łobatiuk wrote:
While I don't notice a lot of competition among translators in my language pair, it can be really fierce and ugly when it comes to anonymous LQA reviews. Preferential issues become minor ones and minor ones — major, which results in a 'fail'. There are also dirty tricks like classifying issues as errors without any reference to reputable sources, and you end up wasting time trying to find references yourself. Or completely phony 'errors' are listed hoping that the translator gives up defending his choices or fails to.
I think we've being working in the same market...
Phil Hand wrote:
I'm a bit bemused by the answers given here. I get the sense that a lot of people seem to think that competition is bad in some way. "Those other people may be competing, but I'm certainly not doing such a vulgar thing!"
Well, Phil, the taint of trade inherent in competition certainly in an insult to true gentility. Just kidding but not really.
Competition is a fine and healthy thing. If you think you're not competing, you're simply wrong (e.g. John - you may not personally know any other translators doing similar work to you, but they undoubtedly exist).
I like contests. I even like badges and certifications and such like. I also like to hear that I'm the agency's best translator for that particular type of job, I certainly appreciate being told that the benefit of my writing skills even if I don't know the area outweighs the benefit of some other guys' specialisation in the field at hand. I've heard and enjoyed a lot of such compliments, and I think that, after all, this would qualify as 'competition' in your understanding.
On the other hand, I want clients to come to me or see my offer and make the decision. I don't like pitch. It's already bad enough that I have to use marketing techniques, as far as I'm concerned. When it's up to the clients to pick, it's fine. Might even educate them to help them pick, even with the obvious ulterior motive of hoping they'd pick me. But when it's up to me to fight the other guys... no, not really.
With hesitation, I could probably force myself to write a 'why choose me', but that's as far as I'd go.
Perhaps it's because when we think of competition, we often think immediately of *price* competition - of undercutting other good translators and undermining our profession. But one can equally well compete on quality and service - and I'm sure we'd all agree that we work constantly to keep our quality up.
Price or deadline or whatever other numbers game of more, faster and cheaper it is. But, just simply driving the quality up would be good.
The other thing is that competition doesn't necessarily have to be negative or zero-sum.
I have a hard time imagining that. Would you please care to elaborate?
Also, I guess at this stage in my post the following will look like a non-sequitur, but there's one thing I dislike in the whole competition thing, viz. competition based on client service. Not the kind of service that you'd associate with army service or civil service or knight and lord kinda service, but something like basically waiting on the client, selling serotonin instead of translation by keeping him satisfied and making that satisfaction the paramount goal. Yuck.
And finally, I'm sure we all like to think of ourselves as unique, irreplaceable little fairies, shining with our own light. But we're not. We're each of us cogs in bigger processes, and we can be (and are) replaced at a moment's notice.
Actually, we are. My entire strategy is based on being a prince charming. I don't have a yacht yet, but I don't go hungry, either.
[Edited at 2013-08-09 15:47 GMT]
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| No, we won't fight about that | Aug 9, 2013 |
Phil Hand wrote:
I think I have slightly different connotations for both those words, though. To me, fierce isn't a particularly negative word, and the combination with "competition" doesn't make for a negative phrase. I think of myself as a fierce competitor (er, when I've had enough coffee, at least!) without compromising on quality.
owhisonant wrote: Translators are gentle people... unless it comes to differences about syntax or terminology  !
Snipped from the same online Merriam-Webster:
FIERCE
1 a : violently hostile or aggressive in temperament
b : given to fighting or killing
2 a : marked by unrestrained zeal...
You took #2, I took #1.
Perhaps 'savage' competition would leave no doubt about it, if using this definition:
SAVAGE
1 b : lacking the restraints normal to civilized human beings : fierce, ferocious
This would include the aforementioned proofreaders covering translators' otherwise pristine work with mud, in an attempt to grab the next translation job.
| | | | Phil Hand
China
Local time: 10:15
Chinese to English
| I'd welcome more competition with open arms | Aug 9, 2013 |
Łukasz Gos-Furmankiewicz wrote: The other thing is that competition doesn't necessarily have to be negative or zero-sum. I have a hard time imagining that. Would you please care to elaborate?
Just to answer this question: my view on this is very much informed by my experience working in an emerging language pair (but then, you do, too!)
In Chinese, there is no high quality market. It simply doesn't exist yet. There are a few good translators, most of them working outside China. But there are not enough to guarantee that if you pay enough money, you'll find one; and they are swamped by poor quality vendors. You could spend 10 euros per word in China, and there's still no guarantee that you'll get good quality work done.
As a result, a lot of high quality clients have to make do. My favourite story is of the boss of a multinational visiting their China office, and the China CEO having to interpret for him. My big direct client is a multinational who hates working with a freelancer. They want to go through an agency, but they can't because local agencies won't give them the quality they want. So for many companies, there's a vicious cycle of low quality leading to low expectations and unwillingness to pay high prices.
For me, every good new translator that appears is another brick in the foundations of what will one day be the world's biggest and best translation market. Every time I see a Chinese company with well-translated marketing materials, I cheer, because that company is more likely to pay for good translation next time, too (if they can only find it).
So, while I understand what you mean - for any given job, only one person can get it, and everyone else loses - over the long term, good competition will improve my prospects immeasurably. And even on a single job, good competition need not be zero-sum. Right now, for many jobs, the competition is me (good but no specialist knowledge) or some cheapie. If we can upgrade that to me (good and expensive) vs a specialist (specialist and expensive), then we can get the client to consider more options, and pay more. Thus, not zero-sum.
I've been thinking about this because I took a guy who runs a small European agency to a meeting the other day, and the culture shock was visible. What is by Chinese standards a high quality agency still doesn't really register as a potential partner for a European set up. There's so much space to grow and improve here! And I would have thought that the same is true of Poland, isn't it?
[Edited at 2013-08-09 16:21 GMT]
| | | | | Translation tests | Aug 9, 2013 |
I think starting out can be a difficult time. Perhaps this is when translators may feel as if they really are in direct competition with everyone else in their language pair. A newcomer might start browsing ProZ.com, and feel inadequate when they see people with multiple language pairs claiming to specialise in everything from accounting to zoology.
The worst experience I've had was with a proofreader. They proofread two of my translation tests for two different agencies. It was fo... See more I think starting out can be a difficult time. Perhaps this is when translators may feel as if they really are in direct competition with everyone else in their language pair. A newcomer might start browsing ProZ.com, and feel inadequate when they see people with multiple language pairs claiming to specialise in everything from accounting to zoology.
The worst experience I've had was with a proofreader. They proofread two of my translation tests for two different agencies. It was for the same specific field, and I later discovered that it was the same proofreader, as they marked both tests in the same way and even ended with the same remark. They didn't seem to really proofread my work. They just highlighted most of it and waffled on, with useless remarks like: "hmm, are you sure?", "I don't think I'd do it this way", and then finished with the exact closing remark. This was pretty upsetting at the time. It wasn't the first time I'd had my work proofread, I know that proofreaders/editors should be thorough, and they will ALWAYS find something that can be improved... and that they're often nice enough about it. But, I just didn't feel this was the case with "that" proofreader, so I did something about it. I asked the agencies to use another proofreader. I pointed out all the things which I believed to be baseless and one of the agencies just told me to try again after six months (I never did). The other agency actually got a second proofreader to look at my test and what a surprise, they gave a very different assessment. I got the job. Since then I've worked with that person on a few projects, and wasn't entirely shocked to find out that they did more translation work than proofreading. I think agencies need to be aware of this kind of thing, especially in cases where proofreaders of test translations are also going to be working on the following projects and may not want to share the workload. ▲ Collapse
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