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Glossary entry

French term or phrase:

épouse à la mode danoise

English translation:

wife more danico

Sep 16, 2005 15:08
18 yrs ago
French term

épouse à la mode danoise

French to English Art/Literary History
Au château, on vous montrera peut-être la fenêtre d’où Robert l’aperçut et s’en éprit au point d’en faire bientôt, avec l’assentiment de la belle, son épouse « à la mode danoise » et la mère de Guillaume.

I know what this means, I just need to find the right register: concubine, mistress?
Proposed translations (English)
5 +12 wife more danico
3 +6 mistress or common-law wife
4 +1 concubine/wife
4 mistress
4 and his "woman"
4 -1 "wife à la mode danoise" or "wife a à la danoise" (SEE)

Discussion

Carmen Schultz Sep 20, 2005:
That is a good point. Perhaps the way to circumvent the main challenge is to include a legend with Adam's solution.
df49f (X) Sep 18, 2005:
The phrase "�pouse � la mode danoise" is just as obscure for most French readers yet the author CHOSE to use it rather than "concubine" ou "ma�tresse" though these words exist also in French/Translation should reflect the author's intention, not betray it
Carmen Schultz Sep 18, 2005:
I concur with Rita:public schools in the US don't place too much emphasis on Latin or Greek, or even modern languages for that matter--classical languages are usually elective subjects(optional)in public schools thus Latin terms are obscure to many people
RHELLER Sep 17, 2005:
taken Latin; more importantly, ENG is not a Latin language. The majority, although just as intelligent as their FR counterparts, have NEVER been exposed to Latin. Protestants do not use Latin and many schools do not even offer it.
RHELLER Sep 17, 2005:
I would like to bring the asker's attention to a very relevant point to this type of unusual translation: Latin is much more commonly recognized in France than it is in the U.S. (I cannot speak for the UK). I live here and was educated here, have never

Proposed translations

+12
1 hr
French term (edited): �pouse � la mode danoise
Selected

wife more danico

The words "more danico" are in Latin. This refers to the practice of taking one or more "secondary wives", which was tolerated by the Church authorities in 11th-century Normandy among the relatively recently-Christianised Norsemen. It was probably the equivalent of a "concubine", but implied a form of commitment the latter term does not. Nor can it be a "live-in girlfriend", a "woman", a "whore" or a "mistress". All the literature on the subject in Bayeux and Caen uses the term "épouse more danico", "wife more danico", taken from the Latin of the contemporary chroniclers, and attesting to the fact that, in the mind of the Norsemen, a wife was meant even if, as in William's case, such a union did not confer legitimacy on its offspring.

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Note added at 1 hr 52 mins (2005-09-16 17:00:28 GMT)
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I'm very encouraged by Jane Lamb-Ruiz's comments, and "sporran's" too! A very entertaining, and I think historically accurate account of Duke William, especially enlightening on his early life, is Jean de la Varende's "Guillaume, Le Bâtard conquérant", if it's still in print. It used to be in Livre de Poche format, and maybe there's a copy knocking around in the Bibliothèque François Mittérrand repository. The author is a XXth century writer in the school of Barbey d'Aurevilly, a countryman of Duke William, his homeland being the Pays d'Ouche, and empathetically poetic about the loving relationship that saw the Conqueror into the world. Have a nice weekend, all of you, and thank you for being so encouraging.
Peer comment(s):
agree Jane Lamb-Ruiz (X) : that's fine...good..finally....this is a perfect example of having to really understand Context! I really hope this is chosen. It is a fantastic answer, These things are not grand public. Why should translation dumb things down?
0 min
agree sporran : perfect !
17 mins
agree Charlie Bavington : You live and learn. This does appear to be the best option in terms technical correctness, frequency it occurs compared to the original (i.e. hardly ever on google for both!) etc.... Altho' whether anyone will understand... (not in 2 vol OED, for example)
24 mins
It's a historical term, and Latin to boot.
neutral RHELLER : what good is a translation if it cannot be understood?- perhaps asker could insert a comprehensible answer in parentheses - but which one might that be? hmmm
1 hr
I feel sure I have given some elements of a reply in my explanation and notes. None of the "News-of-the-World" modern equivalents are really appropriate. Perhaps use the Latin expression I have given and explain in a footnote the custom to which it refers
agree Rachel Ward : Yes, but definitely with an explanation, perhaps something like "common-law wife"?
3 hrs
agree df49f (X) : thanks for giving people credit for brains!! surely as many English-speaking readers will/will not understand the Latin phrase as French-speaking readers who will/will not understand its French equivalent :) - mistress/CLW is not the proper rendition
3 hrs
agree suezen
15 hrs
agree Bourth (X) : Perfect! As for understanding, it takes reading between the lines to understand "à la mode danoise" too.
15 hrs
agree Carmen Schultz : a good option yet obscure at the same time; maybe the footnote you suggest would help explain it to the average reader.
17 hrs
agree writeaway : lovely contribution. why choose to ignore the context-at least this Asker has actually provided it .
20 hrs
agree Angela Dickson (X) : yes, possibly with a gloss as well (depends who will be reading it, I suppose)
2 days 19 hrs
agree mstkwasa : Uxor more danico - "wife by Danish custom" or "Danish-law wife" if you like. "Wife" in Danish "mos" but not a "wife" canonically or in civil or common law (in both meanings of the English Common Law and the Romano-canonical ius commune). [Sorry for eds.]
4 days
I am flattered that my translation was chosen, but really, "mstkwasa" contributed the best answer. Regards
agree emiledgar : If you insist on getting all perturbed about how mus=ch latin anyone is going to be able to comprehend, then 'common-law wife in the Danish style" should do it.
4 days
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "this is the right one for the context. Thanks everyone for your input"
9 mins
French term (edited): �pouse � la mode danoise

mistress

I would use mistress over concubine here. Common law wife might apply but not necessarily in a French context.

Art et expositions - France 3 - [ Translate this page ]
Gauguin arrive à Copenhague en 1883, à 35 ans, en compagnie de son épouse danoise
Mette Sofie Gad, 33 ans, rencontrée dix ans auparavant à Paris et avec ...
cultureetloisirs.france3.fr/ artetexpositions/expos/12948247-fr.php - 39k - Cached - Similar pages

Peer comment(s):
neutral David Sirett : Not a good reference, Elizabeth: Gauguin was married to Mette Sofie Gad, and she was Danish!
8 mins
David, Gauguin lived with Mlle. Gad, first, as I understand it. I defer to your greater knowledge if you understand differently. But, still, mistress is correct//and perhaps I could have chosen a better illustration, I agree..
agree Christopher Crockett : David's comment notwithstanding (ouch! a *literal* "Danish wife"), I think "mistress" best fits what little of the context we have been given here.
9 mins
Thanks Christopher - my data are different from David's but I am not expert in this area.
disagree df49f (X) : not a mistress nor a concubine - the appropriate term is wife more danico as proposed by Adam and closest definition would be common-law wife
22 hrs
df49f - Thanks for your comment, read My first one.: ))
Something went wrong...
30 mins
French term (edited): �pouse � la mode danoise

and his "woman"

Since Bill the Conk was raised by both parents in the château at Falaise, "mistress" could be misleading: even when a man (or woman) is not also married, he/she may not actually live with his mistress/lover.

Robert le Diable had no other children, which suggests that he was not married.

"Woman" (in quotes) suggests, I think, a long term relationship, without getting into the social niceties of some other more dainty words.
Peer comment(s):
agree Elizabeth Lyons : This is perfect!
0 min
disagree Adam Warren : Respectfully "woman" is too coarse a term in this historical context.
31 mins
Something went wrong...
+1
3 hrs
French term (edited): �pouse � la mode danoise

concubine/wife

Or legitimate concubine.
As an alternative to the 'uxor more danico' or an explanation thereof.

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Note added at 18 hrs 40 mins (2005-09-17 09:48:28 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

Web examples (not including biblical references):
Flavius Julius Crispus (also known as Flavius Claudius Crispus and Flavius Valerius Crispus) was the first and only son resulting from the relationship between Constantine I, “The Great” and his *concubine wife*, Minervina.
His relationship with Minervina hardly touches this reputation, whether she was wife or only *legitimate concubine*.
In theory, Caesar wouldn't have fallen in love with her, taken her side in the Egyptian Civil War, or made her his *concubine/wife*.

From the Catholic Encyclopedia, concubinage [http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04207a.htm]:
The meaning of the term in Roman law, and consequently in early ecclesiastical records and writings, was much the same; a concubine was a *quasi-wife*, recognized by law if there was no legal wife....
The clandestine marriages which gradually came to be tolerated in the Middle Ages, as they lacked the formality of a public sanction by the Church, can be considered as a species of *legitimate concubinage*.

Peer comment(s):
agree Carmen Schultz : Actually, wife may work if you adapt it a bit by saying "wife à la mode danoise" or "wife a à la danoise", perhaps this is more intelligible than "wife more danico,." which is an accurate phrase also
18 hrs
Thanks, Carmen. To retain the historical flavour of the original, I myself would say "his 'more danico' wife (i.e. his legitimate concubine)". My alternatives are offered in case the asker does not wish to use any Latin or French.
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-1
22 hrs
French term (edited): �pouse � la mode danoise

"wife à la mode danoise" or "wife a à la danoise" (SEE)

Wife may work if adapted a bit by saying "wife à la mode danoise" or simply "wife à la danoise-- this adaptation solves the register challenge by placing it in proper context historically and linguistically; the phrase "à la mode" or "à la"(as in "à la so and so..."to indicate one is following someone's style [e.g.,à la Marilyn Monroe...") are borrowed from French & used much in English.
Peer comment(s):
disagree df49f (X) : "à la mode": vanilla or chocolate ice-cream? :-)) this new answer is not any more appropriate than your previous answers now hidden! Adam's answer is still the correct one.
4 mins
I am not disagreeing with Adam one iota I'm just throwing in another option and as for your comment vanilla or chocolate I did give an option that omits the "mode" because it does have that ring you suggest. Just another option bec ideas are being sought
Something went wrong...
+6
8 mins
French term (edited): �pouse � la mode danoise

mistress or common-law wife

10th century - 11th century - 12th century - other centuries) As a means of ..Henry II of England acknowledges Rosamund Clifford as his mistress. ...
www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/1174

Encyclopedia: Harold Godwin
... was the mistress or common-law wife of King Harold II of England. ... Harold also had several illegitimate children by his famous mistress (or wife, ...
www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Harold-Godwin


Le bâtard
Né d'une union dite more danico, c'est à dire à la mode danoise, courante au 10ème siècle, signifiant le concubinage officiel,

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 2 hrs 38 mins (2005-09-16 17:47:01 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

added: please note initial ref which cites "more danico" which, even in the French, was deemed "difficile à comprendre" and required an explanation

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 day 5 hrs 44 mins (2005-09-17 20:53:12 GMT)
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The American Council on the Teaching of Foreign Languages reports that in 1990, there were 163,923 public high school students -- or 1.5 percent -- studying Latin. Ten years later, 177,477 public high school students -- or 1.3 percent -- took the language.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/EDUCATION/10/14/schools.latin.a...
Reference:

http://th2001.asterix.free.fr/Enigme35/Soluce/Resolution35.htm

Peer comment(s):
agree Elizabeth Lyons : We must have hit the buttons at almost the same time : )
2 mins
thanks Elizabeth :-)
agree Jean-Claude Gouin : I would use "common-law wife" ...
7 mins
thanks :-)
agree Christopher Crockett : The exact word which will be used should depend upon the context, of course. "Common-law wife" is very formal; "Mistress" is relatively neutral'; "Concubine" somewhat more derrogatory; "Whore"... well you get the point.
9 mins
let us not descend "trop bas" monsieur crockett :-) mistress is more civilized than whore and implies a longer relationship
agree Regina Guerra
19 mins
merci RG :-)
disagree Adam Warren : respectfull, inappropriate in this historical context. William's parents had a sort of social acceptance not known in our time.
51 mins
what are you proposing? your comments are ambiguous
neutral Jane Lamb-Ruiz (X) : Adam ...why don't your propose something??
1 hr
your comment is supposed to be directed at me...oh, please
agree Charlie Bavington : I think I'd go for CLW as its meaning is understood even if legally there's no such thing; mistress is often used for "the other woman" as well as for the female half of an unmarried partnership and as such can be confusing, IMO.
1 hr
there is such a thing here in the U.S.
agree Rachel Ward : Could use "common law wife" as an explanation of the "more dancio" thing...
4 hrs
thanks Rachel :-)
disagree df49f (X) : agree with Adam //remarque semblant refléter une bien piètre opinion des capacités intellectuelles de la population anglophone!//author gives credit to his/her French readers for some brain, what gives translators the right not to do the same?
5 hrs
difference is that French is a Latin lang.and English is not-only a very small % of ENG readers have a comprehension of anything Latin (mainly priests or lawyers)//a realistic view 'cos I was educated&live here//are you saying understanding Latin=brain?
agree suezen : common-law wife - as Rachel said
16 hrs
thanks Suezen :-)
agree Carmen Schultz : I agree with your comments about Latin and US audience, thus I think a more accessible term is needed although a colleague has insisted that adaptation is not "appropriate." It only goes to show you can't please everyone!
1 day 12 hrs
UK and US residents should answer this question because usage here is capital -thanks Carmen (and I take offense at comments which put brain power on a par with level of Latin)
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