Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
ce comité prendrait ses décisions à 75% des voix
English translation:
75% of votes will be required for the Committee to take decisions
Added to glossary by
Conor McAuley
Apr 24, 2021 14:50
3 yrs ago
54 viewers *
French term
Zimbabwe
30 yrs exp. Environment - Certificates
Native in: English (Variants: British, South African, UK)
Works in: French to English, English
ce comité prendrait ses décisions à 75% des voix
French to English
Law/Patents
Law: Contract(s)
Will
This is part of a Belgian last will and testament, and specificially refers to a committee of 6 adults set up to manage the assets of 2 minor children (who also form part of the committee).
Does "75% des voix" mean a decision requires a quorum of 75% of the members, or a 75% majority vote ...
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Does "75% des voix" mean a decision requires a quorum of 75% of the members, or a 75% majority vote ...
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Proposed translations
(English)
Change log
Apr 27, 2021 07:01: Conor McAuley Created KOG entry
Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:
Non-PRO (1): Rachel Fell
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Proposed translations
+6
3 hrs
Conor McAuley
France
France
Native in English
Specializes in field
France
Excellence, Expertise & Experience
Native in: English (Variants: Irish, British, Wales / Welsh, UK, Scottish)
Works in: French to English, English
Related KudoZ points
:
101
Selected
75% of votes will be required for the Committee to take decisions
NO search matches for "à 75% des voix".
Ask the client, failing that, go as literal as possible, i.e. something like above, and maybe even add a translator's note about the ambiguity -- 75% of votes make a quorum, or 75% makes a majority?
You may of course come across something else in the text that will help you with this term.
Very peculiar indeed.
The executor may just rule the language unintelligible...I don't know what happens then.
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Note added at 10 hrs (2021-04-25 01:34:55 GMT)
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Because "by 75%" and "with 75%" are fuzzy, very fuzzy indeed. And the very last thing you want in a legal translation is fuzziness -- you want total clarity, or at least an explanation of the ambiguity -- a translator's note. It's NOT cheating.
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Note added at 10 hrs (2021-04-25 01:36:18 GMT)
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It's a professional approach to the problem.
Ask the client, failing that, go as literal as possible, i.e. something like above, and maybe even add a translator's note about the ambiguity -- 75% of votes make a quorum, or 75% makes a majority?
You may of course come across something else in the text that will help you with this term.
Very peculiar indeed.
The executor may just rule the language unintelligible...I don't know what happens then.
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 10 hrs (2021-04-25 01:34:55 GMT)
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Because "by 75%" and "with 75%" are fuzzy, very fuzzy indeed. And the very last thing you want in a legal translation is fuzziness -- you want total clarity, or at least an explanation of the ambiguity -- a translator's note. It's NOT cheating.
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Note added at 10 hrs (2021-04-25 01:36:18 GMT)
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It's a professional approach to the problem.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Thomas Miles
: A point for the more direct wording.
1 hr
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Cheers Thomas! Because "by 75%" and "with 75%" are fuzzy, very fuzzy indeed.
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| agree |
Timothy Rake
: Although in US English, I think we would express it, "a 3/4ths majority is required to make decisions" rather than 75%
2 hrs
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Thanks Timothy, that's interesting! I'm working on my US English at the moment.
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| agree |
Saeed Najmi
: As is, yes.
7 hrs
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Thanks Saeed! As the words in French are, there's not much more you can do with it. The French version will be legally binding anyway, so an explanatory translator's note is maybe the right way to go about it.
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| disagree |
Daryo
: disagree with your explanations - and this is far too important to just add a "translator's note" - if you cant figure it out from the rest of the will asking for clarifications from the client would be unavoidable.
7 hrs
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Fair enough, a tough question -- I look forward to seeing your answer.
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| agree |
AllegroTrans
: Another absurd disagree posted (above)
19 hrs
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Thanks Chris! Indeed...the less said the better.
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| agree |
SafeTex
: I think this is what they mean. It's not the quorum but the % of votes needed to pass a motion. But the source text is not super clear so the asker needs to check
23 hrs
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Thanks SafeTex!
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| neutral |
Nils Andersson
: You MAKE a decision, you do not TAKE a decision.
1 day 11 hrs
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Approx. 120,000,000 (edit - sorry, left out three zeros) Google search matches for "take a decision"
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| neutral |
mrrafe
: Nils, I didn't have Conor's stats but I'd def be more comfortable with "take" in European courts. https://www.quickanddirtytips.com/education/grammar/take-dec...
1 day 20 hrs
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| agree |
Sanjin Grandić
: As Thomas well said:A point for the more direct wording.-The disagree for this answer is based on emotions and not linguistics-
1 day 23 hrs
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Thanks Sanjin!
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| agree |
Eliza Hall
2 days 51 mins
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Thanks very much Eliza!
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank you all for a very animated debate and your assistance!
"
-1
25 mins
this committee will take its decisions by 75% of those present and voting
It looks like 75% of the votes, which could be less than 75% of the membership. Compare: " ... les délibérations du Conseil sont prises à la majorité des voix des administrateurs présents ou représentés." (I believe représenté means someone seated as a substitute or agent for one of the administrateurs.) In other words, voix doesn't include absentees. https://www.adami.fr/aide/4760/article-2-modalites-relatives...
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
writeaway
: the French is perfectly clear
2 hrs
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Merci Writeaway
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| disagree |
Daryo
: where do you see "present and voting" in the ST?
10 hrs
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Depending on the meaning, which must be evident in FR, the translation needs to say either "those present and voting" or "quorum" because the ST doesn't convey either in EN. Based on FR usage shown by the Adami link, I infer it must be "present & voting."
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| neutral |
Conor McAuley
: It's an interpretation Daryo, involving the use of imagination. / I don't claim to be a lawyer-translator, but I was trying to kind of defend your answer, but I do believe that your answer is an extraprolation, rather than something based on the ST.
11 hrs
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Merci Conor but it's more inference from the Adami link than sheer imagination. Sometimes one has to use sources outside the ST. /// Understood Conor, agreed. Thanks again.
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| neutral |
AllegroTrans
: "those present and voting" isn't in the text; this simply means that if 3/4 of the people in this family commitee vote for a proposal then it it is carried, i.e. regardless of any other requirement
22 hrs
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Asker's question comes down to whether that's the meaning or not. I tried to reason it through. This creates a risk of mistranslation, but Asker recognizes it or they wouldn't have asked. A literal translation with no interpretation would be obvious.
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| disagree |
Greatservice00
: In my humble opinion I do not think that it has to do with the number of people present, but with the number of people backing one decision. I think the decision would be made based on the option ( or solution ) that had the most people voting for it
22 hrs
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It's a fairly common problem in counting votes that not everyone shows up, and what to do about it.
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+1
27 mins
Robert Miki
Cameroon
Cameroon
Native in French
&
English
Specializes in field
Cameroon
19 years of apt sense translating
Native in: English (Variants: British, Canadian, US) 
, French (Variants: Standard-France, African, Cameroon, Canadian)
Works in: French to English, English to French
this committee would make its decisions with 75% of the votes cast
à 75% des voix means there must be a 75% majority vote for any decision to be valid
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Note added at 56 mins (2021-04-24 15:47:36 GMT)
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OR
this committee shall make its decisions by 75% of the votes cast
OR
this committee shall make its decisions by a 75% majority vote
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Note added at 56 mins (2021-04-24 15:47:36 GMT)
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OR
this committee shall make its decisions by 75% of the votes cast
OR
this committee shall make its decisions by a 75% majority vote
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
Daryo
: WHERE do you see "cast" in the ST?
10 hrs
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We cast votes, don't we?
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| neutral |
Conor McAuley
: What else do you do with a vote, Daryo? Even if you abstain, I suppose you cast a vote to be neutral.
11 hrs
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Thank you for taking my defense
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| agree |
Jessica Noyes
: Rules of formal writing in Engish discourage starting a sentence with a number. I applaud this answer not only for its content, but also for its correct style. I do prefer your third option, but there is nothing at all wrong with "cast".
23 hrs
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Thanks
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| agree |
AllegroTrans
: Six votes "for" and a decision is made. No need to look any further. UNLESS (and we simply don't know) there are weighted votes - e.g. the adults may have 2 votes each and the children 1 vote each. Asker would be wise to check rest of text.
1 day 38 mins
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Thank you
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-4
10 hrs
this committee will take its decisions by at least 75% of votes
This group of people may well be called "le comité", and you certainly can find of sorts of "committees" in the public and private sector, only this text is NOT about a company, but about some kind of "family council" administering a will (/acting like trustees?), so making parallels with rules applicable to Annual General Meetings of shareholders or on the decision-making process by a Board of Directors makes no sense.
I bet there is no mention mention whatsoever in this will of any "quorum" that would be required for this "committee" to take valid decisions, as the assumption is that EVERY vote counts EVERY time, and that everyone will be present, or at least enough people to have 75% of ALL votes.
It DOESN'T say "... 75% des voix exprimées" nor "... 75% des voix présentes", but simply "à 75% des voix", and if there is no mention anywhere else of any distinction between "... voix présentes / absentes / exprimées / abstenues / nulles ..." then basic logic would imply that 75% refers to 75% of ALL those who have a vote in the matter.
I bet there is no mention mention whatsoever in this will of any "quorum" that would be required for this "committee" to take valid decisions, as the assumption is that EVERY vote counts EVERY time, and that everyone will be present, or at least enough people to have 75% of ALL votes.
It DOESN'T say "... 75% des voix exprimées" nor "... 75% des voix présentes", but simply "à 75% des voix", and if there is no mention anywhere else of any distinction between "... voix présentes / absentes / exprimées / abstenues / nulles ..." then basic logic would imply that 75% refers to 75% of ALL those who have a vote in the matter.
Peer comment(s):
| disagree |
Conor McAuley
: "by at least" -- define, elucidate. Quorum? Majority? Present and voted? / Possible good points about parallels with company committees, but they can make up their own rules, and your answer is fundamentally an awkward rewording of mine. Harsh but true.
23 mins
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this answer may sound like being more or less the same, but ANY answer with a wrong explanation is not really any kind of help. // it's a bit like: are you really "doing the right thing" if you do it for completely wrong reasons?
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| disagree |
Sanjin Grandić
: where do you see or extrapolate "at least?"
9 hrs
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"... by a majority of 75% of votes" vs "... by at least 75% of votes" - WHERE exactly is the fundamental difference??? Не може никако да буде "шија", може само да буде "врат" и ништа друго! ама баш никад? Караван иде даље ...
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| disagree |
AllegroTrans
: but simply "à 75% des voix" (your own words) - so why add "at least" which is not in the source text? HOW is this better than Conor's answer??
11 hrs
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did you read further from the first line? As a point of method, if you consider that the explanation doesn't matter, then we will NEVER agree.
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| disagree |
SafeTex
: This is barely English and it does not clarify ANYTHING. This is why I'm very wary about making suggestions in my two source languages, which I read well but I have the modesty to know that I don't sound like a native speaker when I write
15 hrs
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does "thank you very much for your valued opinion" sound English enough to your easily irritable ears?
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19 hrs
Adrian MM.
Austria
Austria
Native in English
Specializes in field
Austria
Retd.T&I, Barrister & Austro-Advokat
Native in: English (Variants: British, Scottish)
Works in: Spanish to English, English to Spanish, French to English, and 5 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
86
This Committee's decisions, made as-quorate, shall be adopted by 75% of the votes
I've gone for a 'double-whammy' of an assumed quorum, whether or not the quorum is onsite or online, and the majority required to pass the votes.
It is also a logical fallacy to think that 75% must be a neat diviider of 6+2 single votes, as the adults or children could have 'weighted' votes: Bushell vs. Faith, a UK private company law case that also 'obtains' throughout the British Commonwealth and ex-member countries, as in the country of my ex-Rhodesian flat-sharer in West London.
Daryo's 'at least' , no less than or upwards of is a good point, though we don't know what, if anything, happens to the excess votes.
It is also a logical fallacy to think that 75% must be a neat diviider of 6+2 single votes, as the adults or children could have 'weighted' votes: Bushell vs. Faith, a UK private company law case that also 'obtains' throughout the British Commonwealth and ex-member countries, as in the country of my ex-Rhodesian flat-sharer in West London.
Daryo's 'at least' , no less than or upwards of is a good point, though we don't know what, if anything, happens to the excess votes.
Example sentence:
L'assemblée générale prend ses décisions à la majorité des voix des actions représentées. eurofima.org The General Assembly adopts decisions by a majority of votes of the shares represented.
Bushell v Faith [1970] AC 1099. The articles of a small private company contained weighted voting provisions.
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Thomas Miles
: I would love to have a beer with you – you seem a very interesting person with many an interesting tale!
6 hrs
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| neutral |
Daryo
: this text is about some kind of "family council" - I don't see much relevance for elaborate rules applied to businesses (and institutions) big enough to have all sorts of "committees".
1 day 1 hr
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Reference comments
15 mins
Marge Hogarty
United States
United States
Native in English
Specializes in field
United States
Related KudoZ points
:
4
Reference:
I've looked up "majorité des voix" in Kudos and Lingué and there is no mention of a quorum. It's the percentage of votes cast.
Peer comments on this reference comment:
| agree |
mrrafe
10 mins
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Also there is a word for quorum in French, and it is "quorum".
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| agree |
AllegroTrans
: Exactly
1 day 17 mins
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Discussion
So obviously those who "don't want or are unable" to form part to this "comité" will not have any vote.
Which confirms that "75%" is to be taken as "75% of all those who have the right to vote (/ as they have accepted to be part of this "comité").
So, if you think that principle is DEFINITELY the scenario (I'm not saying it definitely is), then you need to go with the "75% majority" option. I would still insert a translator's note, which is a perfectly valid way of handling ambiguity, by the way, textbook translator method.
To complicate things further, the will belongs to someone who is already deceased, and from the handwritten notes made on the copy I was given to translate, someone has already queried the 75% clause with a handwritten note "autre 25% ?"
Like who can call a meeting, in which way, how many members must be present before starting any deliberations (=the quorum), etc etc.
If someone took the trouble to mention it their will "un comité" made of 6 adults and the 2 minor heirs, and put a 75% rule that means in effect that the 6 adults can always override the 2 minors, will that person EVER leave open in their will the possibility of the 2 minors meeting and deciding to squander everything "right now"?
"this committee will take its decisions by 75% of those present and voting" would mean exactly that as "being allowed": the 2 minors "holding a meeting of this committee " and both "voting" the same (= "100% of those present and voting)
As far as I can see, this interpretation of the ST would fail miserably any serious "reality check".
In absence of any other "rule" regarding this "comité" the ONLY interpretation that makes real-life sense is "75% of all votes" i.e. of all 8 "existing votes".
If you take the six adults and two children, that makes 8 people in total so 75% is 6
But now I'm wondering if it is not talking about the quorum, but the majority needed to push through a proposal, which is why I withdrew my comment about the quorum (plus I see the asker mentioned "quorum"
if they do mean "75% needed to vote for a proposal in order to go ahead", none of the proposed answers are 100% clear
What do others think please?