| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3] | Poll: When working on texts in languages with gendered nouns/pronouns,how do you handle gender neutrality? Thread poster: ProZ.com Staff
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| Traditions vs l'écume des jours | Mar 7 |
Here, the basic word for a human being ("человек") is masculine. And it will stay masculine (and will be handled with masculine pronouns): while feminists do insist that all sorts of words like those designating professions and other qualities attached to people be given feminine endings, they somehow close their eyes to the fact that, if they wanted to bring this cause to its logical end, they should have given the same treatment to the word "человек", so it would mean, for exampl... See more Here, the basic word for a human being ("человек") is masculine. And it will stay masculine (and will be handled with masculine pronouns): while feminists do insist that all sorts of words like those designating professions and other qualities attached to people be given feminine endings, they somehow close their eyes to the fact that, if they wanted to bring this cause to its logical end, they should have given the same treatment to the word "человек", so it would mean, for example, that a woman is not "человек", but... let me guess. I never read or heard anyone try to do that. The feminine endings they tend to use are usually among the ugliest (i. e. in dissonance with the word to which they are appended), but the fact is that we have good many ways to attach a feminine ending to a word. I could do it easily with "человек": I can think of ten or even more versions of it, and I promise it will be crazy funny for someone who can speak Russian. People just don't go that far because most of them have enough common sense left. If you're working on making your language uglier, expect resistance. When writing in English, I have no problems with "they/them", it doesn't jar on me. Oh, and if I ever received an order to translate something that insists on using some of the latest "progressive" convensions on gender-neutral language, I'd just say no, simple as
[Редактировалось 2024-03-07 10:51 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Zea_Mays wrote: ronsmith wrote: Zea_Mays wrote:
"tutte le persone candidate avevano meno di 24 anni" (but of course this does not always work) What if the candidates were dogs or parrots? I am not aware of a discussion on gender neutrality related to animals, plants or things.
Are you sure that this trend for gender neutrality does not apply to dogs and cats? Because I am not.
| | | | Zea_Mays 
Italy
Local time: 14:38
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
Angie Garbarino wrote: Zea_Mays wrote:
I am not aware of a discussion on gender neutrality related to animals, plants or things. Are you sure that this trend for gender neutrality does not apply to dogs and cats? Because I am not.
Yes, as long as dogs and cats don't start asking for it.
The process is not top-down but bottom-up, the demand comes from the people directly concerned. Like all living things, language evolves, and if it was forged by men in the past, we can forge it now to be more inclusive and try to find the most elegant way to do so.
| | | | Kay Denney
France
Local time: 14:38
French to English
Maria Teresa Borges de Almeida wrote:
I remember well all the fuss made when, in 1979, Maria de Lurdes Pintasilgo (Portugal's sole female Prime Minister so far) was appointed Prime Minister. By then, there was no feminine gender for the word "minister" in Portuguese. When the argument broke out, with people saying that a woman "minister" should be called “ministra” (the feminine form), instead of “ministro” (the masculine form) most of the population was outraged. The term "primeira-ministra” (the feminine of prime minister) was one of the biggest linguistic aberrations these people could imagine. Men (and many women) sneered and jeered. It was thought preferable to say "a primeiro ministro" (the in the feminine form + primeiro-ministro in the masculine form). Things have evolved since then…
The year I arrived in France, 1982, a French man told me that the Brits were a damn nuisance for doing everything differently (imperial measurements, driving on the left etc.) The latest affront was appointing a female PM, because calling Mrs Thatcher "Mme le premier ministre" was just too weird.
(Oh and calling her the Iron Lady was no solution because that's what the Eiffel Tower was affectionately known as, how dare she steal that nickname!).
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Kay Denney
France
Local time: 14:38
French to English
IrinaN wrote: I'm having bigger problem with the speedy simo interpretation. We used to have manned and unmanned space flights. Now it's crewed and uncrewed so each time I'm about to be hit with it, I worry more about a slip of a tongue than a piece of information I must deliver  . Russia woke up in the last century, calling it "piloted" and "non-piloted" since the dawn of times. Not to mention first woman in space.
Don't worry too much! It's hard to change the way you speak. If we do genuinely want to avoid upsetting people, and apologise when we mess up, it's OK. We're trained as translators to try to frame ideas in language that sounds natural, so it's maybe even harder for us to learn new ways of saying something. Just look at all the translators here railing against the "ugly" terms required by PC!
I remember my mother railing against PC language, but nobody blinks at the term fire fighter nowadays. And I got ticked off the other day for using the word "handicapped" in English (because I was talking about something that happened to a French person, a story I had only previously related in French, and in my haste, and not being "on duty", I forgot that the PC word was "disabled").
One word in the LGBT+ translations which was problematic for me was "travesti", which translates to "transvestite". It occurred to me that I hadn't seen the word in use for ages and wondered whether it had been banned. Others had already wondered the same thing, there were several threads on Reddit where people were asking. Answers from the LGBT+ community ranged wildly from "bit old-fashioned but nothing wrong with it" to "please don't ever use this term it's highly offensive". Many pointed to "crossdresser" as a more modern alternative, but somehow that sounded out of place describing events from the La Belle Epoque. Since it was being used to describe men dressing as women, I ended up putting "men in drag".
Interestingly, the spellcheck in the latest version of Word can point these things out. It's a bit of a nuisance when it tells you not to use "master" when you've had to translate the French equivalent of "Jack of all trades, master of none".
And it got a bit complicated because the spellcheck told me that "gay" was to be preferred instead of "homosexual". No, I'm not going that far, especially given that the exhibition featured the first dictionary to contain the word "homosexual" (coined by a Czech living in Germany, in German, in the late 19th century).
| | | | | I had no choice but to vote ‘Other’. | Mar 8 |
For those who are not already ‘in the know’, I should perhaps begin, by way of context, by explaining that I am a transgender writer and translator, and in both of those capacities I ‘work’ in English, French and Spanish.
Anyone who might be interested in translating my as-yet-unfinished novel “Can I Come Too?”* which is, let’s say, ‘inspired in part by the author’s personal life experience’, would first need to convince me of their ability to deliver a faithful ... See more For those who are not already ‘in the know’, I should perhaps begin, by way of context, by explaining that I am a transgender writer and translator, and in both of those capacities I ‘work’ in English, French and Spanish.
Anyone who might be interested in translating my as-yet-unfinished novel “Can I Come Too?”* which is, let’s say, ‘inspired in part by the author’s personal life experience’, would first need to convince me of their ability to deliver a faithful rendering of the ‘message in context’ conveyed – often rather subtly or even subliminally - in each and every gendered expression in the English manuscript.
Candidate translators would need to achieve that with due consideration of the fact that several of the key protagonists are ‘diverse’ in one way or another (LGBT+, physically or mentally challenged, etc.) whilst some others are the victims of discrimination or violence; also, that those characters’ own understanding of their ‘difference’ and the ways they deal with it in the workplace, in society in general and in their sex lives, are in constant evolution throughout the narrative. On top of all that, several chapters have multiple first-person POVs for as many as four of those characters, and the interaction between the protagonists takes place in multiple social contexts – from boardroom to bedroom, from park benches to police stations, from pubs to clinics, from ...
Only through an informed, empathetic and open-minded approach to the subject-matter in general, and at least a moderate degree of affinity with the narrative I’ve written, would a translator be able to render adequately the gender-sensitive expressions that are embedded throughout the story, the relevance of which often does not become apparent until much later in the chronology of events. A couple of simple examples: where my text says, for example, ‘barman’, there’s a very good reason why it doesn’t say ‘bartender’, and where I wrote ‘policewoman’ I don’t mean ‘police officer’. Likewise, if a character misgenders someone else in the dialogue, or uses a transgender person’s dead name, any ‘PC’ rendering of the passage that tended to mitigate the sense of injury to the target of that incident, or alter the interpretation of the victim’s response to the verbal aggression, would dilute the narrative quite likely to the point of pointlessness.
Finally, just to be clear: this is NOT (yet) a job offer. When/if the novel is finished it might appear on the Jobs Board. Translators who don’t know the difference between ‘gender neutral’ and ‘non-binary’ need not bother applying: likewise those who classify anything gender-related as ‘woke nonsense’.
JL
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* Working title, subject to change. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | A text full of THEY (gender neutral) | Mar 9 |
I am now translating a text from English full of THEY for gender neutrality, it is almost impossible to stay neutral in Italian, so I checked "L'Accademia della Crusca".
Here a summary of their statement (quickly translated by me)
It is certainly right, and indeed commendable, when we speak or write, to pay attention to linguistic choices relating to gender, avoiding any form of linguistic sexism. But we must not try or pretend to force the language - at least in its ... See more I am now translating a text from English full of THEY for gender neutrality, it is almost impossible to stay neutral in Italian, so I checked "L'Accademia della Crusca".
Here a summary of their statement (quickly translated by me)
It is certainly right, and indeed commendable, when we speak or write, to pay attention to linguistic choices relating to gender, avoiding any form of linguistic sexism. But we must not try or pretend to force the language - at least in its institutional uses, those specific to the standard that is taught and learned in school - at the service of an ideology, however good this may appear to us. Italian has two grammatical genders, the masculine and the feminine, but not the neuter, just as, in the grammatical category of number, it distinguishes the singular from the plural, but does not have the dual, present in other languages, including ancient Greek . We must calmly take note of this, aware of the fact that biological sex and gender identity are different things from grammatical gender. Perhaps, a conscious use of the masculine plural as an unmarked grammatical gender, and not as a prevarication of the masculine understood as biological sex (as it has been interpreted so far, and certainly not unjustifiably), could solve many problems, and not only on a linguistic level. But the words should then be accompanied by the facts.
[Edited at 2024-03-09 09:56 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Zea_Mays
Italy
Local time: 14:38
Member (2009)
English to German
+ ...
| let'use only feminine plural | Mar 9 |
"L'Accademia della Crusca"
... we must not try or pretend to force the language (...) at the service of an ideology ...
I really value the Accademia della Crusca and it's always been one of my number one references, but in this case I think the text was written by a bunch of old (or old-minded) men. What about using only the feminine instead of the masculine plural?
Calling gender-neutral language an "ideology" is a genuine right-wing narrative, but it's not limited to that political side; it shows that people don't know where the evolution comes from, and that they seem to struggle with changing good old habits.
In both my native tongues it is really difficult to use neutral language, and sometimes you'll just not find the right fit.
The public discussion is way ahead in German compared to Italian speaking areas, still no official rules have been established yet.
"*", capitalization within words and ":" are most commonly used for gender neutrality in German, but they all have cons, among others when text is read by screen readers. In some cases nominalized present participles can be used.
Regarding non-binary pronouns, here's a very informative German wiki with many suggestions discussed in detail: https://www.nibi.space/pronomen (Jennifer, this may be a good contact point when your book is finished and ready for German translation).
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Zea_Mays wrote: "L'Accademia della Crusca"
... we must not try or pretend to force the language (...) at the service of an ideology ... I really value the Accademia della Crusca and it's always been one of my number one references, but in this case I think the text was written by a bunch of old (or old-minded) men. What about using only the feminine instead of the masculine plural? Calling gender-neutral language an "ideology" is a genuine right-wing narrative, but it's not limited to that political side; it shows that people don't know where the evolution comes from, and that they seem to struggle with changing good old habits. In both my native tongues it is really difficult to use neutral language, and sometimes you'll just not find the right fit. The public discussion is way ahead in German compared to Italian speaking areas, still no official rules have been established yet. "*", capitalization within words and ":" are most commonly used for gender neutrality in German, but they all have cons, among others when text is read by screen readers. In some cases nominalized present participles can be used. Regarding non-binary pronouns, here's a very informative German wiki with many suggestions discussed in detail: https://www.nibi.space/pronomen (Jennifer, this may be a good contact point when your book is finished and ready for German translation).
What about gendering (in German with Gendersternchen and other abstrusities) in every day speech and conversation around an apéro? Or is gendering only meant for writing?
| | | | | Gender neutral language resources | Mar 9 |
Zea_Mays wrote: Regarding non-binary pronouns, here's a very informative German wiki with many suggestions discussed in detail: https://www.nibi.space/pronomen (Jennifer, this may be a good contact point when your book is finished and ready for German translation).
Thanks for the link There's a related multi-lingual source here: https://nonbinary.wiki/wiki/Gender_neutral_language
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However whatever idea you may have l'Accademia della Crusca remains the highest body for Italian language, this is a fact. At least currently and surely in my lifetime.
I for one have no problems over gender neutrality, I was just searching a response for my current translation full of THEY, and what I found is above.
I checked your link, and this is what it says about inclusive French:
"Finally, as it is not officially recognised, it is important to ment... See more However whatever idea you may have l'Accademia della Crusca remains the highest body for Italian language, this is a fact. At least currently and surely in my lifetime.
I for one have no problems over gender neutrality, I was just searching a response for my current translation full of THEY, and what I found is above.
I checked your link, and this is what it says about inclusive French:
"Finally, as it is not officially recognised, it is important to mention that inclusive French might not be accepted in contexts where formal language is expected; such as exams, language proficiency tests, official documents etc."
[Edited at 2024-03-09 15:50 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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