| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5] > | Leaning on Kudoz for translations that are over your head? Thread poster: Anne Pinaglia
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564354352 (X) 
Denmark
Local time: 07:26
Danish to English
+ ...
| Undoubtedly, some people do | Mar 18, 2012 |
I'm still a relatively new ProZ.com member and still learning the ropes here. However, I never presumed the site to be for professionals only and never for a minute expected it to be an elitist site where only people with some imaginary level of excellence could participate. You only have to look at the ridiculous prices offered for jobs here to know that this is NOT a site for top professionals only. So why get worked up about how different people use the site?
Like Neilmac, I am a... See more I'm still a relatively new ProZ.com member and still learning the ropes here. However, I never presumed the site to be for professionals only and never for a minute expected it to be an elitist site where only people with some imaginary level of excellence could participate. You only have to look at the ridiculous prices offered for jobs here to know that this is NOT a site for top professionals only. So why get worked up about how different people use the site?
Like Neilmac, I am a bit of a word geek and a quiz freak, I just can't help myself if I get the chance (and have the time) to answer questions. And I love my native language sufficiently to find it very worthwhile trying to help others understand its intricacies so that THEY can deliver proper translations in their own language. I have, however, noticed that one or two people seem to ask a lot of questions very quickly after each other, so quickly that it is totally obvious that they have not had the time in between the submitted terms to do any level of research to resolve the questions themselves. Whether or not the questions are 'professional', I don't really care, it's the fact that someone uses Kudoz INSTEAD of doing their research that bothers me. My choice has been to simply block such people, well, for now, just one person, actually, but that will be my choice. I presume in the 'big' language combinations, that might be a solution? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I'm glad someone feels our pain! | Mar 18, 2012 |
Ty Kendall wrote:
Wow! Italian to English has really suffered an assault the past few days! I feel your pain.
If only it were possible (as a group - IT>EN translators) to just boycott the asker...unfortunately this is a pipe dream since someone will always answer, either out of a bit of misguided kindness or points-grabbing or some other reason...
I, for one, boycott these questions. Just now I simply voted to classify the question as "non-Pro" (honestly, the word is in any pocket-sized travel dictionary!) and in another I saw that part of the only answer provided (by a non-native speaker) was wrong. I just ignored it. Didn't put a disagree or neutral.
Let that translator sink. There are a few people who do this constantly. You can read the entire source text in the series of questions, with their comments such as "the term is on the tip of my tongue but won't come to me". Yeah, right.
For Maria:
Maria Dimitrova wrote:
So I think we have to be more tolerant to beginners - they might ask easy questions now, but you never know, maybe they will improve their skills rapidly and will be able to even help you out with difficult terms in the future.
We are NOT talking about beginners here. We're talking about people who regularly take on work for which they are not qualified. They're smart enough to know that Google Translate may not be the answer and instead rely on the good graces of their colleagues.
Catherine
[Edited at 2012-03-18 09:36 GMT]
| | | | Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:26
Hebrew to English
| Worse than that.... | Mar 18, 2012 |
cbolton wrote: For Maria: Maria Dimitrova wrote:
So I think we have to be more tolerant to beginners - they might ask easy questions now, but you never know, maybe they will improve their skills rapidly and will be able to even help you out with difficult terms in the future. We are NOT talking about beginners here. We're talking about people who regularly take on work for which they are not qualified. They're smart enough to know that Google Translate may not be the answer and instead rely on the good graces of their colleagues. Catherine
Catherine's right, ....
It's not even that they are beginners, it's that we're talking about people who claim to have over 15, yes that's right, fifteen years of experience in translation, some having the red "P", yet they are asking questions that wouldn't challenge a first year language student.
Another poster was right, this site isn't only for professionals (that's why there's student membership) but these questions aren't being asked by students, they are being asked by people who are passing themselves off as professionals, and this site does have rules against fraudulent misrepresentation.
[Edited at 2012-03-18 09:05 GMT]
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Ty Kendall wrote:
It's not even that they are beginners, it's that we're talking about people who claim to have over 15, yes that's right, fifteen years of experience in translation, some having the red "P", yet they are asking questions that wouldn't challenge a first year language student.
Another poster was right, this site isn't only for professionals (that's why there's student membership) but these questions aren't being asked by students, they are being asked by people who are passing themselves off as professionals, and this site does have rules against fraudulent misrepresentation.
It is also annoying to see someone posting 70+ questions from a highly specialised technical text in a matter of several days. Would a professional translator take on a job that he is obviously not capable of translating himself without all technical terminology being given to him on a platter since the subject text is not withing his working fields?
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Ty Kendall
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:26
Hebrew to English
| Part of the problem is KudoZ itself... | Mar 18, 2012 |
and its schizophrenic nature. Currently it doesn't seem to know what it's for, who it's for...
The KudoZ network provides a framework for translators and others to assist each other with translations or explanations of terms and short phrases.
...Quite a broad scope then, it's for translators and others (very broad) with no mention of the difficulty of the terms to be posed...but then....
KudoZ™ provides ProZ.com users a way to offer each other, and guests, free assistance in translating tough terms.
Now it's for Proz.com users and guests (equally as broad as the last statement) but..."in translating tough terms". So, not for your average run-of-the-mill, my neighbour's cat could answer it type question then. (Despite the existence of the Pro/Non-Pro dichotomy).
KudoZ™ provides professional translators, and others, with a way to solicit and share translation help on terms that are too new or specialized to appear in most glossaries or dictionaries.
Another similar statement, but this time it’s about terms which are “too new or specialized to appear in most dictionaries”.
So, what's clear and can be agreed on in all three statements is that KudoZ is for any Tom, Dick or Harry. Where they differ is whether KudoZ should be reserved for tough terms. 2 out of 3 statements support the idea that the aim of KudoZ is for terms which challenge the intellect.
So, imagine a scenario....
....a question comes up, the subject is business/tenders. The term in question is Offèrta. The asker believes it takes a professional to know that Offèrta is a “bid” and not an “offer”. Really? Or does it just take a bit of common sense and an internet connection. Babylon is very helpful here:
“Offèrta in English
offer, tender, bid, bidding, offering; donation offered, proposed, suggested offer, give; provide; bid, come up with, present, tender; serve” – Courtesy of Babylon.
Is it really such a stretch to realise that in the given context the first literal definition might not be the most appropriate?
Is this a “tough term”??...I don’t speak Italian and it only took me three minutes to figure out...and it does indeed appear in a very well-known and open dictionary...it is neither new nor too specialized.
So, is it for KudoZ?
Given the mixed messages it is hardly surprising that:
a) people will ask these types of questions (and not even classify them as Non-Pro)
b) people will get frustrated with this type of abuse with little recourse to do much about it
And I haven’t even raised the issue of the glossaries.....
| | | | Anne Pinaglia
Netherlands
Local time: 07:26
Italian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Ty, it appears we have been equally offended | Mar 18, 2012 |
by the same person.
Yes, 15 years of experience but still has problems with elementary terms? Something about that just doesn't sit right - unless this person, who in this case is a Spanish translator, decided on a whim that "Italian is close enough to Spanish, I'll hack it" and started taking Italian to English work (entirely plausible situation, though a crazy assumption on behalf of the translator), relying on the kindness (and experience) of Proz members to bail them out. I stil... See more by the same person.
Yes, 15 years of experience but still has problems with elementary terms? Something about that just doesn't sit right - unless this person, who in this case is a Spanish translator, decided on a whim that "Italian is close enough to Spanish, I'll hack it" and started taking Italian to English work (entirely plausible situation, though a crazy assumption on behalf of the translator), relying on the kindness (and experience) of Proz members to bail them out. I still can't really wrap my head around it, but I have a colleague who had major problems with a separate translator (same language/s scenario) who apparently took the "I can hack it" approach with an outsourced document and did, indeed, hack the translation to pieces. He learned the hard way. ▲ Collapse
| | | | | That makes at least three of us ... | Mar 18, 2012 |
Anne and Paolo Boidi wrote:
by the same person.
Yes, 15 years of experience but still has problems with elementary terms? Something about that just doesn't sit right - unless this person, who in this case is a Spanish translator, decided on a whim that "Italian is close enough to Spanish, I'll hack it" and started taking Italian to English work (entirely plausible situation, though a crazy assumption on behalf of the translator), relying on the kindness (and experience) of Proz members to bail them out.
As soon as I see who posted the question, I click on it to see who has been foolish enough this time to help out. Someone invariably does, though, so I doubt the lesson will ever be learned.
Perhaps we should start posting WRONG answers, just to see what happens 
Catherine
| | | | | If you suspect this, please report it to a moderator | Mar 18, 2012 |
Heinrich Pesch wrote:
Could it be that the points go to one and the same user? In that case it is an abuse of the system. Otherwise there is nothing wrong with it, the points go to those who have time to answer.
This IS definitely against the rules, and there are ways of tracing offenders.
Staff and moderators do not have time to monitor all KudoZ and will not necessarily notice a pattern without help, but they will look into it if you send a support request, and they will take action if necessary.
[Edited at 2012-03-18 12:37 GMT]
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I'm not a "points bunny". There are quite a few people whose questions I no longer see, as a matter of choice.
I prefer to answer stylistic or linguistic questions and will only offer an answer to a technical query when I know the particular term and know it is hard to find. Other than that, I don't see why I should do someone else's graft for them. I never ask a single question for myself. Why not? Because I do my own research, just like we all had to before Internet, the lazy translator'... See more I'm not a "points bunny". There are quite a few people whose questions I no longer see, as a matter of choice.
I prefer to answer stylistic or linguistic questions and will only offer an answer to a technical query when I know the particular term and know it is hard to find. Other than that, I don't see why I should do someone else's graft for them. I never ask a single question for myself. Why not? Because I do my own research, just like we all had to before Internet, the lazy translator's best friend.
But one thing that irritates me profoundly is when someone asks a question that can be found in half a minute with a couple of clicks, less than the time that it took the said person to frame and to post the question. Grrrrr! That really annoys me. To be so intellectually lazy as to waste time by asking a question: words fails me! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Cetacea
Switzerland
Local time: 07:26
English to German
+ ...
| Wishful thinking | Mar 18, 2012 |
Tomás Cano Binder, CT wrote:
After seeing this practice for almost a decade, all I can say is: do not worry unnecessarily. A translator who takes a job he/she's not qualified to do will make a mess of it, with or without Kudoz, and customers will notice and will look for qualified translators sooner or later. They (and I mean both the unqualified translator and the uncareful customer) learn the lesson very quickly.
Unfortunately, that's not what's happening at all. You're disregarding the financial aspect, which may be quite decisive for some clients. In response to your post, I went back and checked on two particularly blatant abusers on my "filtered" list, and after several years of constantly proving that they're in over their heads with jobs they keep accepting, the two ladies in question are still around, and obviously thriving. To make matters worse, they work in the fields of medicine and law respectively, where they can do a lot of potentially very dangerous damage. But--among other things--thanks to KudoZ participants who keep enabling them to deliver at least some kind of partially meaningful translation, they are still in business. Naturally, they only ask hundreds or even thousands of questions, they never answer any...
| | | | Anne Pinaglia
Netherlands
Local time: 07:26
Italian to English
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | You hit the nail on the head! | Mar 18, 2012 |
Cetacea wrote:
Unfortunately, that's not what's happening at all. You're disregarding the financial aspect, which may be quite decisive for some clients. In response to your post, I went back and checked on two particularly blatant abusers on my "filtered" list, and after several years of constantly proving that they're in over their heads with jobs they keep accepting, the two ladies in question are still around, and obviously thriving. To make matters worse, they work in the fields of medicine and law respectively, where they can do a lot of potentially very dangerous damage. But--among other things--thanks to KudoZ participants who keep enabling them to deliver at least some kind of partially meaningful translation, they are still in business. Naturally, they only ask hundreds or even thousands of questions, they never answer any...
And then we wonder why we get haggled to lower our prices all the time...
| | | | | My patience has run out | Mar 18, 2012 |
I just posted a comment on the latest of a massive string of questions suggesting that the ersatz translator hire the person who's answered most of the questions.
After discussing this in the forum, seeing the umpteenth question broke this camel's back.
Enuff awready or, as we say in Italian, basta!
Catherine
UPDATE: It got hidden by the moderator, but it doesn't change how I feel. There are very qualified translators out there who would have done a much better job... See more I just posted a comment on the latest of a massive string of questions suggesting that the ersatz translator hire the person who's answered most of the questions.
After discussing this in the forum, seeing the umpteenth question broke this camel's back.
Enuff awready or, as we say in Italian, basta!
Catherine
UPDATE: It got hidden by the moderator, but it doesn't change how I feel. There are very qualified translators out there who would have done a much better job without crunching the translation through Kudoz.
[Edited at 2012-03-18 17:01 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Oriol Vives (X)
Spain
Local time: 07:26
English to Catalan
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| And then even... | Mar 18, 2012 |
There are those who not only take translations over their head, but give no points or a single "Thank you" for the answer provided. Yeah, that's the way to go, sure.
Fortunately, this just happens once to me.
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Anne and Paolo Boidi wrote:
by the same person.
Yes, 15 years of experience but still has problems with elementary terms? Something about that just doesn't sit right - unless this person, who in this case is a Spanish translator, decided on a whim that "Italian is close enough to Spanish, I'll hack it" and started taking Italian to English work
just maybe that's exactly what happened, I know many of us me included state how much experience we have but unfortunately experience doesn't equate to ability.
If someone started translating and did one short translation a month for ten years he would be able to say he had ten years experience but in reality he may only have translated 20k words.
When I lived overseas the local garage owner produced some stickers which he placed in the cars he had serviced. The stickers proudly proclaimed '20 years experience in the UK'.
This was great, he did indeed have 20 years experience of working in the UK but for the vast majority of that time he actually owned and ran a fish and chip shop!
[Edited at 2012-03-18 19:46 GMT]
| | | | Sonia Hill
United Kingdom
Local time: 06:26
Italian to English
cbolton wrote: Perhaps we should start posting WRONG answers, just to see what happens Catherine
Your idea is seriously tempting
I know who is being talked about without even checking KudoZ. I decided to hide all questions asked by this particular person some time ago!
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