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初来乍到，寻求众大侠指路>. Thread poster: janejoki
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Jinhang Wang 
China
Local time: 18:04
English to Chinese
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| 我推测这种用法是早期对英语了解不够而误传下来的 | Jun 18, 2013 |
jyuan_us wrote:
翻译时很少用到(除了调验问卷可以稍微用用)。这个问题不必用科学与否来衡量，知道它存在就行了，存在的就是合理的。
应该说，存在的就是有缘由的，倒不一定是合理的。比如，早期的洋泾浜英语。
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Randy CUI
China
Local time: 18:04
English to Chinese
+ ...
jyuan_us wrote:
J.H. Wang wrote:
James_xia wrote:
下面略举几例：（白话汉字难打，就简体中文说明一下。望讲广东话的朋友有怪莫怪:）
Have you been to San Francisco ? ——你有去过旧金山吗？
Has she eaten something wrong? 她有吃不干净的东西吗？
Have I said it before? 我有讲过这话吗？
我基本上同意 James_xia 老兄做的分析。这种句式应该是在历史上最初接触英语时形成并遗留下来的。而且，从现在的观点来看，这种表达似乎不见得科学。
比如，你上面举的三个例子，完全可以改写如下：
Have you been to San Francisco ? ——你去 过旧金山吗？
Has she eaten something wrong? 她吃 了不干净的东西吗？
Have I said it before? 我讲 过这话吗？
翻译时很少用到(除了调验问卷可以稍微用用)。这个问题不必用科学与否来衡量，知道它存在就行了，存在的就是合理的。
如果你到台湾去，当然可以讲“我讲 过这话吗？”， 但“我有讲 过这话吗？”却更地道，或者更TRENDY。
在口语中，不管那个语言，在不同地区是一定有些差异的。就像中国临近的两个县城，虽然相距很近，在口语用词方面都能感觉出区别。
东北普通话口语中， “能吗” 经常=”会吗“，例如， ”他今天能不能来啊“=”他今天会不会来啊“。
广东人说国语，句末经常加“来的”，约等于 “来着”。 比如“我本来想去来的”。而且，他们爱说“都”， 几乎可以加在任何动词前，几乎从副词变成了情态动词。
这些现象，用标准MANDARIN来评判，都是不合理的，但是在当地就是合理的。
其实英语也一样。宾州离开纽约只有几个小事。那里的人再见时说TAKE IT EASY. 而纽约则更多地说 HAVE A NICE DAY (有时晚上也这样说，和在厕所里问吃了吗有异曲同工之妙。宾州爱把JAMES说成JIM， 纽约则PREFER JIMMY。 THEODORE， 宾州是TED，纽约是TEDDY。还有KENETH/KEN/KENNY， THOMAS/TOM/TOMMY。反正纽约叫人名时，多数都是Y结尾，这样昵称才亲切。
此为口语的地域性特点。
欢迎jianejoki入驻！
另外我比较赞同jyuan_US关于语言的看法。这关乎语言的变体或者方言的问题，在口语中尤其如此。口语不应当有标准或者不标准一说，只要符合当时的context，能够有效交流就没有问题。书面语言也是这样。
中国传统的语言学流派倾向于象牙塔里做文章，他们的成果一般是prescriptive，不能有效反应语言使用的现状。现在倾向于descriptive的语言学家派越来越多，他们学习西方同行的一些做法，建立了语料库，进行语言研究，编撰词典。
英语词典的编撰我了解不多，就我所知，LONGMAN系列做的不错，他们早就进行了语料库研究，他们出版的Longman Grammar of Spoken and Written English我经常参考。
一得之见，仅供参考。
[Edited at 2013-06-18 13:04 GMT]
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Randy CUI
China
Local time: 18:04
English to Chinese
+ ...
J.H. Wang wrote:
jyuan_us wrote:
翻译时很少用到(除了调验问卷可以稍微用用)。这个问题不必用科学与否来衡量，知道它存在就行了，存在的就是合理的。
应该说，存在的就是有缘由的，倒不一定是合理的。比如，早期的洋泾浜英语。
个人认为，洋泾浜英语在当时的环境中是合理的。
评价一种语言的变体是否合理，必须考虑其存在时的环境。语言不能规定，规定也不起作用，认为语言可以净化的想法多半行不通。不符合语言习惯的用法不用净化，也会自动消亡，符合语言习惯，能够起到交流作用的用法就是净化也净化不掉，即使依靠政府的力量强行净化掉啦，也会有不少后遗症。比如大陆前些年推出的简化字工作，使用方便是方便啦，但造成的恶果之一是与传统的割裂。现在又有多少人能够自如地阅读古籍？老祖宗留下的文化遗产，大多数后人读都读不懂，可惜啊。我倒认为，台湾和香港比较完整地保留了中国的传统文化，这和繁体字的使用关系不小。
语言学家的任务应该是描写性的，能够反应语言使用的现状，当然他们可以通过自己的工作引导而不是规定语言的使用。
现在的语言使用也是这样，要结合具体的环境或者说是语境考虑，不能脱离具体的语境和语域。比如口语语体即使非常正确，在合同中也不能使用。同样，满口之乎者也，在跟卖菜的人聊天时也多半不合适。
[Edited at 2013-06-18 13:08 GMT]
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wherestip
United States
Local time: 05:04
Chinese to English
+ ...
I remember seeing in the past the colloquial form of going to "gonna" in somebody's profile.
That definitely is inappropriate and looks entirely out of place.
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wherestip
United States
Local time: 05:04
Chinese to English
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| Pidgin English | Jun 18, 2013 |
... is definitely a no no in any circumstance, except for perhaps comedy.
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Randy CUI
China
Local time: 18:04
English to Chinese
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| Varieties of English | Jun 18, 2013 |
wherestip wrote:
... is definitely a no no in any circumstance, except for perhaps comedy.
Then what about Chinese English or the so-called "Chinglish"? Then what about Indian English, or the Indian variety of English? Then what about English spoken in Australia and New Zealand, in which "day" is pronounced something like "die"? Then what about American English before the independence of the Colonies？Even in Britain, you may find some varieties of spoken English.
A variety was quite Okay as long as it was commonly used in a community and the speakers did communicate well with that variety. So it might be concluded that Pidgin English was quite acceptable if not standard and encouraged.
[Edited at 2013-06-18 14:23 GMT]
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wherestip
United States
Local time: 05:04
Chinese to English
+ ...
| Pidgin English | Jun 18, 2013 |
awakening16 wrote:
wherestip wrote:
... is definitely a no no in any circumstance, except for perhaps comedy.
Then what about Chinese English or the so-called "Chinglish"? Then what about Indian English, or the Indian variety of English? Then what about English spoken in Australia and New Zealand, in which "day" is pronounced something like "die"? Then what about American English before the independence of the Colonies？Even in Britain, you may find some varieties of spoken English.
A variety was quite Okay as long as it was commonly used in a community and the speakers did communicate well with that variety. So it might be concluded that Pidgin English was quite acceptable if not standard and encouraged. [Edited at 2013-06-18 14:23 GMT]
You're confusing a lot of issues. Having an accent is not the same as not using correct grammar.
Aussies and New Zealanders may or may not have an accent, but they don't speak pidgin.
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Jinhang Wang
China
Local time: 18:04
English to Chinese
+ ...
awakening16 wrote:
个人认为，洋泾浜英语在当时的环境中是合理的。
我觉得洋泾浜英语只是反映了其使用者当时对英语这种语言的掌握程度，只是当时的一种存在状况，可以说事出有因，但不能说是合理的。
下面有对洋泾浜英语的介绍：
“所谓“洋泾浜英语”，是指那些没有受过正规英语教育的上海人说的蹩脚英语。它的特点一是不讲语法，二是按中国话“字对字”地转成英语。”
“上海的洋泾浜英语主要是英语与上海话的结合。因此有些洋泾浜英语要用沪语或宁波官话发音才能辩明意思。比如下面这首竹枝词：
好法身而沙发身， （ how fashion 而so fashion）
如此如此脱罗真。 （true ）
勃朗由与勃朗妹， （ belong you 与belong me）
是尔是我亦是人。
衣裳楚楚语陪陪， （ baby）
考姆陪陪歇歇来。 ( come baby )
多少洋行康八杜， ( comprador )
片言茹吐费神猜。
清晨见面谷猫迎， ( good morning )
好度由途叙别情。 (how do you do )
若不从中肆鬼肆， ( squeeze )
如何密斯叫先生。 ( mister )
滑丁何物由王支， (what thing you want )
哀诺王之不要斯。 ( I no want )
气煞外边穷苦力， ( coolie , 源于印地语 )[7]”
“除了冯泽夫等旅沪宁波商人在1860年编写的《英话注解》，肄业于广方言馆(中国人早期创办的外国语学校)的曹骧(曾任上海道署译官)在1874年推出了一本《英文入门》，里面全部以上海方言注音。逗留上海的西人查理斯·李兰德懂得中文，他经过搜集也编出了一本《洋泾浜英语歌谣集》。这是流传甚广的学习歌诀之一。[7]
来叫克姆（COME）去叫谷（GO），
是叫也司（YES）勿讲拿（NO），
一元洋钿温得拉（ONE DOLLAR），
廿四铜钿吞的福（TWENTY-FOUR），
翘梯翘梯喝杯茶（HAVE TEA），
雪堂雪堂请侬坐（SIT DOWN），
红头阿三开泼度（KEEP DOOR），
自家兄弟勃拉茶（BROTHER），
爷叫泼茶娘卖茶（FATHER / MOTHER），
丈人阿爸发音落（FATHER IN LAW）。”
太可乐了！完全可以用作为今天相声节目的素材。
忘了把链接补上了：
http://baike.baidu.com/view/67417.htm
[Edited at 2013-06-18 15:01 GMT]
[Edited at 2013-06-18 15:52 GMT]
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Jinhang Wang
China
Local time: 18:04
English to Chinese
+ ...
awakening16 wrote:
比如大陆前些年推出的简化字工作，使用方便是方便啦，但造成的恶果之一是与传统的割裂。现在又有多少人能够自如地阅读古籍？老祖宗留下的文化遗产，大多数后人读都读不懂，可惜啊。我倒认为，台湾和香港比较完整地保留了中国的传统文化，这和繁体字的使用关系不小。
[Edited at 2013-06-18 13:08 GMT]
我们首先要明白一点，文字是人发明的，文字存在的目的是为人服务的，文字的变化要以人的使用便利为标准，而不是反过来。
从历史的角度看，就中文而言，并非一成不变的，而是经历了经历了甲骨文、金文、篆书、隶书、楷书、草书、行书等阶段。就汉字的简化而言，我认为，完全顺应了文化教育大众化的历史潮流。而且，由于笔画大大减少，其经济性也是显而易见的，甚至在我看来，就从美观的角度而言，也是非常可取的。我们可以比较一页的 Word 繁体字和简体字，至少在我看来，繁体字由于笔画太多，看起来让人晕眩。
有人认为，由于汉字简化，造成了与文化传统的割裂。我觉得这个问题也应一分为二的看。中国文化固然有需要继承的一面，但是更重要的是，目前的重心应在于开拓与创新。事实上，由于我们过于执着于旧文化，使得我们的文化在近代以来远远地落伍于西方文化。这一点，我相信是不难看出的。
[Edited at 2013-06-18 15:24 GMT]
[Edited at 2013-06-19 05:51 GMT]
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Rita Pang
Canada
Local time: 06:04
Member (2011)
Chinese to English
+ ...
Moderator of this forum
J.H. Wang wrote:
awakening16 wrote:
比如大陆前些年推出的简化字工作，使用方便是方便啦，但造成的恶果之一是与传统的割裂。现在又有多少人能够自如地阅读古籍？老祖宗留下的文化遗产，大多数后人读都读不懂，可惜啊。我倒认为，台湾和香港比较完整地保留了中国的传统文化，这和繁体字的使用关系不小。
[Edited at 2013-06-18 13:08 GMT]
我们首先要明白一点，文字是人发明的，文字存在的目的是为人服务的，文字的变化要以人的使用便利为标准，而不是反过来。
从历史的角度看，就中文而言，并非一成不变的，而是经历了经历了甲骨文、金文、篆书、隶书、楷书、草书、行书等阶段。就汉字的简化而言，我认为，完全顺应了文化教育大众化的历史潮流。而且，由于笔画大大减少，其经济性也是显而易见的，甚至在我看来，就从美观的角度而言，也是非常可取的。我们可以比较一页的 Word 繁体字和简体字，至少在我看法，繁体字由于笔画太多，看起来让人晕眩。
有人认为，由于汉字简化，造成了与文化传统的割裂。我觉得这个问题也应一分为二的看。中国文化固然有需要继承的一面，但是更重要的是，目前的重心应在于开拓与创新。事实上，由于我们过于执着于旧文化，使得我们的文化在近代以来远远地落伍于西方文化。这一点，我相信是不难看出的。
[Edited at 2013-06-18 15:24 GMT]
I agree with you, and I don't agree with you.
From a personal perspective, being a traditional Chinese user, I know for a fact that before I got really comfortable and familiar with reading/using simplified Chinese, I was missing out on a lot of the Chinese-speaking world's best fiction and other pieces in writing. However, I absolutely DESPISE the way simplified Chinese has merged anglicism in a lot of their latest business talk. It doesn't seem clean and seems to be a mouthful when reading it. I may be wrong, but I do feel that I am seeing a heck lot more anglicism being more widespread in simplified Chinese than in HK/Taiwan Chinese.
Then again, anglicism in Chinese in HK in particular started way before I was born, so for me that was part of the norm.
我们可以比较一页的 Word 繁体字和简体字，至少在我看法，繁体字由于笔画太多，看起来让人晕眩。
For the majority of traditional Chinese users, I'd think your experience could perhaps be like mine: when we first started learning how to read simplified Chinese, you get a headache....it's very hard to pick out the words because it seems like things are missing. IMO it's just a matter of familiarity.
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wherestip
United States
Local time: 05:04
Chinese to English
+ ...
The majority of people my age can read simplified and traditional Chinese with equal ease, so I'll sit on the fence on this one. But I have to agree with J.H. that simplified characters provide a cleaner presentation overall.
As for the issue of the adulteration of English into Chinese texts, I agree with Rita. Does GDP look better than 全国总产值 in an otherwise mostly Chinese text？
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wherestip
United States
Local time: 05:04
Chinese to English
+ ...
wherestip wrote:
Does GDP look better than 全国总产值 in an otherwise mostly Chinese text？
This isn't necessarily a good example, 'cause GDP is an acronym after all. However, I can't think of a better example because of my limited exposure to the phenomenon. All I'm saying is I agree with Rita's view if the frequent mixing of a lot of English words into Chinese texts is truly becoming a trend.
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Ying Wang
United States
Local time: 06:04
English to Chinese
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| 大概是香港电影看多了的缘故 | Jun 18, 2013 |
J.H. Wang wrote:
wherestip wrote:
J.H. Wang wrote:
我发现在美国的一些朋友经常写一些类似“我有 + 动词” 结构的句子，我觉得有点奇怪。想了解一下为什么。
...
是不是这样，请教大家。
J.H.,
I thought you could give us some insight into this. IMO, it's not a matter of those living in the U.S. that have this way of speaking.
It could be the language influence from other regions within Mainland China, Taiwan, and Hong Kong. As I recall, you're not the 1st one to point out this phenomenon.
Steve, 谢谢你分享有关信息！
据我所知，这种用法不是标准规范的大陆语法，我没有在大陆的出版物中见到这种用法。难道是出自香港或者其他地区？
请生活在这种句式比较流行的地区的朋友帮忙，看能否找到答案。
好像港台电影里就是这样讲话的。
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Randy CUI
China
Local time: 18:04
English to Chinese
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| Clearer about pidgins | Jun 19, 2013 |
wherestip wrote:
awakening16 wrote:
wherestip wrote:
... is definitely a no no in any circumstance, except for perhaps comedy.
Then what about Chinese English or the so-called "Chinglish"? Then what about Indian English, or the Indian variety of English? Then what about English spoken in Australia and New Zealand, in which "day" is pronounced something like "die"? Then what about American English before the independence of the Colonies？Even in Britain, you may find some varieties of spoken English.
A variety was quite Okay as long as it was commonly used in a community and the speakers did communicate well with that variety. So it might be concluded that Pidgin English was quite acceptable if not standard and encouraged. [Edited at 2013-06-18 14:23 GMT]
You're confusing a lot of issues. Having an accent is not the same as not using correct grammar.
Aussies and New Zealanders may or may not have an accent, but they don't speak pidgin.
Sorry that I might be confusing a lot of issues, but I am not confused about pidgin English(es) or other pidgin languages. After some research into pidgins, I get a clearer idea what pidgins are. It might do no harm if you care to read the following answer of mine:
A pidgin is a variety of language which has grown up among people who do not share a common language, and is generally used as a medium of communication, for trading and other practical purposes. Pidgins involve a limited vocabulary, a contracted grammatical structure, and a narrower range of functions. Although simplified, they are rule-governed. Native languages of no one, they serve as a main means of communication for millions of people.
Perhaps it is imperative to avoid the presumptions and prejudices against a pidgin language, which are far from the reality.
Pidgin languages usually do not last for very long, because of their limited functions. But there are exceptions. Some pidgins have developed into regular auxiliary languages, and even lingua francas, which are known as “expanded pidgins.” An example of the most widely used pidgins is Tok Pisin, which is the most widely used language in Papua New Guinea.
In time a pidgin may become the mother tongue of a community, and then it is called a creole.
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Randy CUI
China
Local time: 18:04
English to Chinese
+ ...
J.H. Wang wrote:
awakening16 wrote:
个人认为，洋泾浜英语在当时的环境中是合理的。
我觉得洋泾浜英语只是反映了其使用者当时对英语这种语言的掌握程度，只是当时的一种存在状况，可以说事出有因，但不能说是合理的。
下面有对洋泾浜英语的介绍：
“所谓“洋泾浜英语”，是指那些没有受过正规英语教育的上海人说的蹩脚英语。它的特点一是不讲语法，二是按中国话“字对字”地转成英语。”
“上海的洋泾浜英语主要是英语与上海话的结合。因此有些洋泾浜英语要用沪语或宁波官话发音才能辩明意思。比如
......
太可乐了！完全可以用作为今天相声节目的素材。
忘了把链接补上了：
http://baike.baidu.com/view/67417.htm[Edited at 2013-06-18 15:01 GMT] [Edited at 2013-06-18 15:52 GMT]
谢谢J.H. Wang，看了你的帖子，我对洋泾浜英语的了解加深啦，以前光听说过，没有仔细看过洋泾浜英语方面的资料。
我们的看法之所以稍有不同，可能在于对“合理性”的界定不同。我所讲的合理性有时效性。不管讨论结果如何，从你的资料中还是学到不少东西，谢谢。
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