Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
venant par représentation
English translation:
acting by right of representation
Added to glossary by
Adrian MM. (X)
Sep 15, 2015 10:57
8 yrs ago
42 viewers *
French term
United Kingdom
Sensible solutions
Native in: English (Variant: Wessexois) 
Works in: French to English, English, English to French
venant par représentation
French to English
Law/Patents
Law (general)
Deed of inheritance
This is from the list of statutory heirs in a "notoriété" drawn up following a death.
Whilst I would expect this to mean "represented by" I fail to see how these grandchildren can be represented by their father when it clearly states that he has died.
Is anyone able to suggest a better rendering?
Ses deux petits-enfants, venant par représentation de leur père, Monsieur xxx, autre enfant de la défunte, prédécédé ainsi qu'il a été dit ci-dessus
Whilst I would expect this to mean "represented by" I fail to see how these grandchildren can be represented by their father when it clearly states that he has died.
Is anyone able to suggest a better rendering?
Ses deux petits-enfants, venant par représentation de leur père, Monsieur xxx, autre enfant de la défunte, prédécédé ainsi qu'il a été dit ci-dessus
Proposed translations
(English)
| 4 +4 | acting by right of representation; (CI) coming by representation |
Adrian MM. (X)
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| 3 +1 | acting on behalf (of their father) |
patrickfor
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| 3 | representing their father's estate |
B D Finch
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Change log
Sep 21, 2015 10:14: Adrian MM. (X) Created KOG entry
Proposed translations
+4
53 mins
Selected
acting by right of representation; (CI) coming by representation
Perhaps you have the representative capacity the wrong way round.
NB up to 40 years ago on the CI/Channel Islands - when Norman French conveyances and wills were written in Norman French - a literal translation like 'coming by rep.' - as the notarially annexed or Commissioner for Oaths-sworn EN 'translation' - would certainly not have raised any eyebrows on Jersey or Guernsey etc.
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Note added at 55 mins (2015-09-15 11:52:14 GMT)
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Norman French conveyances = conveyances of land
NB up to 40 years ago on the CI/Channel Islands - when Norman French conveyances and wills were written in Norman French - a literal translation like 'coming by rep.' - as the notarially annexed or Commissioner for Oaths-sworn EN 'translation' - would certainly not have raised any eyebrows on Jersey or Guernsey etc.
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Note added at 55 mins (2015-09-15 11:52:14 GMT)
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Norman French conveyances = conveyances of land
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
Daryo
1 hr
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Thanks and a good choice.
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| agree |
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
: "ight of representation" is the right legal formula here, although I think in practical terms, the sentence may need to be turned around a little. There are ways of phrasing this which avoid translating the verb "venant" which is heavy/bitty in EN.
5 hrs
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Thanks and another right choice.
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| agree |
AbrahamS
10 hrs
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Thanks and a good choice.
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| agree |
B D Finch
: Having been enlightened by the useful explanation in your Discussion link.
21 hrs
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Thanks and another wise and informed choice.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
+1
1 hr
patrickfor
France
France
Native in French
France
Native in: French (Variant: Standard-France) 
Works in: English to French, French to English
acting on behalf (of their father)
Not sure this is legalese english... but that is the meaning
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
philgoddard
: This is what it literally says. I don't think any ambiguities are the translator's problem.
3 hrs
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thanks Phil!
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2 hrs
representing their father's estate
Though the French text does not mention an estate; once the father is dead, that is all they can be held to represent. I believe that one would express their situation in UK English as representing their father's estate. I suppose that one exception would be if they were representing their father's wishes with regard to e.g. whether he wanted his body to be buried or cremated. However, that is probably not relevant here.
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
patrickfor
: As Daryo also explained they are simply "represent their father in his role as one of their grandmother's heir". Besides the father being dead there is no such thing as "their father's estate"
/in french law when you are dead you don't own anything :-)
8 mins
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In English law, the goods and interests left after a person has died are their "estate". Though French law expresses it differently, there are still property and interests (the estate) to be managed and divided up after the father's death.
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Reference comments
6 hrs
Nikki Scott-Despaigne
Native in English
Works in field
Psychologist, Court-certified legal
Native in: English
Works in: French to English
Related KudoZ points
:
451
Reference:
grant of representation
Just a note to indicate that "representation" is the way to go in EN on this one.
The "grant of representation" is what entitles a person's heirs to act as executor or administrator.
The "grant of representation" is what entitles a person's heirs to act as executor or administrator.
Reference:
2 days 9 hrs
Reference:
Venir (à une succession, à un partage)
Cornu Vocab. juridique
Succéder, recueillir une succession ou une part de succession (y étant appelé et l'acceptant ex. venir de son chef ou par représentation
Succéder, recueillir une succession ou une part de succession (y étant appelé et l'acceptant ex. venir de son chef ou par représentation
Discussion
Après un décès, il peut arriver que des enfants viennent en représentation de leur parents pour le partage de l'héritage du défunt
Définition
En matière de succession, la représentation est une sorte de "fiction juridique" : un ou des enfants peuvent "représenter" leur père et/ou leur mère pour le partage de l'héritage du défunt.
Les articles 751 et suivants du Code civil admettent la représentation :
dans les successions en ligne directe vers les descendants
dans les successions en ligne collatérale entre frères et soeurs.
En revanche, la représentation n'est pas prévue quand une personne doit recevoir un legs par testament. Si cette personne décède avant l'auteur du testament, ses enfants ne peuvent pas venir en représentation, sauf disposition expresse du testateur.
children represent their father, not the other way round.