Glossary entry (derived from question below)
French term or phrase:
ressort à seuil
English translation:
progressive spring
Added to glossary by
Bashiqa
Feb 10, 2023 16:25
1 yr ago
35 viewers *
French term
ressort à seuil
French to English
Law/Patents
Aerospace / Aviation / Space
rudder pedals
Context:
Dans l’exemple de réalisation illustré, le système de restitution d’effort de freinage 114 comprend par exemple au moins un organe d’effort.
L’organe d’effort comprend par exemple un ressort. De préférence, le ressort est un ressort à seuil.
Translated as "threshold spring" which does not ring any bells whatsoever.
TIA for any suggestions, Chris.
Dans l’exemple de réalisation illustré, le système de restitution d’effort de freinage 114 comprend par exemple au moins un organe d’effort.
L’organe d’effort comprend par exemple un ressort. De préférence, le ressort est un ressort à seuil.
Translated as "threshold spring" which does not ring any bells whatsoever.
TIA for any suggestions, Chris.
Proposed translations
(English)
| 4 +3 | progressive spring |
Jennifer Levey
|
| 4 | return spring (tension spring) |
Johannes Gleim
|
Proposed translations
+3
1 hr
Jennifer Levey
Chile
Chile
Native in English
Chile
Human-scale Globalization
Native in: English (Variant: British) 
Works in: Spanish to English, French to English, English to Spanish, and 2 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
16
Selected
progressive spring
The only G-hits I get with ressort à seuil refer to 3 copies of the same text in French describing the Fournier RF5 light aircraft - which is of German origin.
See: http://richard.ferriere.free.fr/archives/essai/fournier_rf5....
Quelques points : Un ressort à seuil, de 10 à 15 kg, comme sur Jodel, éviterait aux pilotes nerveux de trop grandes excursions en dérapage, permises par la puissance du volet.
I suspect the French term may be a mis-translation from the German, but haven't been able to find a similarly descriptive text in German.
The purpose of the ressort à seuil as explained in that French text is similar to that of what in English is usually called a 'variable-rate' or 'progressive' spring, as explained here: https://idcspring.com/linear-versus-progressive-springs
"A progressive spring does not have a constant rate of deflection. For this reason, they are called variable-rate springs. In these springs, there is not an equal distance between coils, so the rate of deflection increases as you compress the spring. This type of spring is very popular in vehicle suspensions. An advantage of this type of spring is that it can stiffen quickly, meaning it can easily absorb smaller force amounts, but it is also strong enough to handle large force loads. A disadvantage is that you need a longer progressive spring to get the same amount of total deflection as a linear compression spring is capable of."
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Note added at 1 hr (2023-02-10 17:50:46 GMT)
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As Liz has mentioned, there are also 'degressive' springs - which are the inverse of 'progressive' springs.
As the ST text is not specific about how the 'springiness' varies, I suggest you play safe and use the generic term that covers both: 'variable-rate' spring.
See: http://richard.ferriere.free.fr/archives/essai/fournier_rf5....
Quelques points : Un ressort à seuil, de 10 à 15 kg, comme sur Jodel, éviterait aux pilotes nerveux de trop grandes excursions en dérapage, permises par la puissance du volet.
I suspect the French term may be a mis-translation from the German, but haven't been able to find a similarly descriptive text in German.
The purpose of the ressort à seuil as explained in that French text is similar to that of what in English is usually called a 'variable-rate' or 'progressive' spring, as explained here: https://idcspring.com/linear-versus-progressive-springs
"A progressive spring does not have a constant rate of deflection. For this reason, they are called variable-rate springs. In these springs, there is not an equal distance between coils, so the rate of deflection increases as you compress the spring. This type of spring is very popular in vehicle suspensions. An advantage of this type of spring is that it can stiffen quickly, meaning it can easily absorb smaller force amounts, but it is also strong enough to handle large force loads. A disadvantage is that you need a longer progressive spring to get the same amount of total deflection as a linear compression spring is capable of."
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Note added at 1 hr (2023-02-10 17:50:46 GMT)
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As Liz has mentioned, there are also 'degressive' springs - which are the inverse of 'progressive' springs.
As the ST text is not specific about how the 'springiness' varies, I suggest you play safe and use the generic term that covers both: 'variable-rate' spring.
Peer comment(s):
| agree |
philgoddard
: Grenzfeder? It sounds like neither translator bothered to research it.
29 mins
|
| agree |
Tony M
5 hrs
|
| agree |
Kim Metzger
21 hrs
|
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
Comment: "Thank you."
22 hrs
Johannes Gleim
Works in field
40 years Engineer, 20 years translations
Native in: German
Works in: English to German, German to English, French to German, and 6 more.
Related KudoZ points
:
4
return spring (tension spring)
The following quote from Jeniver's link offers another approach:
Quelques points : Un ressort à seuil, de 10 à 15 kg, comme sur Jodel, éviterait aux pilotes nerveux de trop grandes excursions en dérapage, permises par la puissance du volet
http://richard.ferriere.free.fr/archives/essai/fournier_rf5....
After searching all the Jodel models on Wikiwand, I found the following reference:
"Je nach Ausführung der D140 verfügt das Flugzeug über ein spitzes oder ein vergrößertes Seitenleitwerk (siehe dazu Versionen). Eine Rückholvorrichtung sorgt dafür, dass auf eine Betätigung des Seitenruders im Fluge weitgehend verzichtet werden kann".
https://www.wikiwand.com/de/Jodel_D140
In Englisch: A return device enables the rudder not to be actuated during flight.
During the search I found somewhere that it refers to a return spring, but unfortunately lost this link again.
return spring [AVIAT.] | die Rückholfeder Pl.: die Rückholfedern
https://dict.leo.org/englisch-deutsch/Rückholfeder
This term relates not to the form but to the function and is, in my opinion, fully applicable. I would rather not commit to a "progressive spring" as the term "ressort à seuil" and its literal translation is incomprehensible to me.
Preferably, the spring is a return spring (rather a tension spring then any kind of compression springs). Tension springs are better suited for the application than compression springs or conical springs, as in light aircraft the rudder is usually pulled with cables and not pushed, certainly not when the return springs are set on block. Cf. the pictures for Jodel D140.
Quelques points : Un ressort à seuil, de 10 à 15 kg, comme sur Jodel, éviterait aux pilotes nerveux de trop grandes excursions en dérapage, permises par la puissance du volet
http://richard.ferriere.free.fr/archives/essai/fournier_rf5....
After searching all the Jodel models on Wikiwand, I found the following reference:
"Je nach Ausführung der D140 verfügt das Flugzeug über ein spitzes oder ein vergrößertes Seitenleitwerk (siehe dazu Versionen). Eine Rückholvorrichtung sorgt dafür, dass auf eine Betätigung des Seitenruders im Fluge weitgehend verzichtet werden kann".
https://www.wikiwand.com/de/Jodel_D140
In Englisch: A return device enables the rudder not to be actuated during flight.
During the search I found somewhere that it refers to a return spring, but unfortunately lost this link again.
return spring [AVIAT.] | die Rückholfeder Pl.: die Rückholfedern
https://dict.leo.org/englisch-deutsch/Rückholfeder
This term relates not to the form but to the function and is, in my opinion, fully applicable. I would rather not commit to a "progressive spring" as the term "ressort à seuil" and its literal translation is incomprehensible to me.
Preferably, the spring is a return spring (rather a tension spring then any kind of compression springs). Tension springs are better suited for the application than compression springs or conical springs, as in light aircraft the rudder is usually pulled with cables and not pushed, certainly not when the return springs are set on block. Cf. the pictures for Jodel D140.
Peer comment(s):
| neutral |
Jennifer Levey
: You haven't explained how a 'return spring' is relevant in Asker's ST context, nor why the FR text using the same expression says 'de 10 à 15 kg', indicating a range of forces. (BTW, Jodel is a FR company - your DE text is likely a translation).
31 mins
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No, it's a genuine German text. Please note that the German importer imported hundreds of Jodel models.
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Reference comments
58 mins
Reference:
comment
I am unable to find your little phrase
only freinage a seuil = degressive braking
I did find "degressive spring"
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Note added at 1 heure (2023-02-10 17:26:58 GMT)
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Threshold braking
Wikipedia ·
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Threshold...
Threshold braking or limit braking is a driving technique most commonly used in motor racing, but also practiced in road vehicles to slow a vehicle at the ...
any such thing as a
"limit spring"?
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Note added at 1 heure (2023-02-10 17:31:23 GMT)
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only other finding = "return spring"
Aircraft Brakes
aircraftsystemstech.com ·
https://www.aircraftsystemstech.com › ...
return spring aviation braking from www.aircraftsystemstech.com
As it does, a return spring in the master cylinder move the piston, piston rod and rudder pedal back to the original position (brake off, pedal not depressed).
only freinage a seuil = degressive braking
I did find "degressive spring"
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 heure (2023-02-10 17:26:58 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
Threshold braking
Wikipedia ·
https://en.wikipedia.org › wiki › Threshold...
Threshold braking or limit braking is a driving technique most commonly used in motor racing, but also practiced in road vehicles to slow a vehicle at the ...
any such thing as a
"limit spring"?
--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 1 heure (2023-02-10 17:31:23 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------
only other finding = "return spring"
Aircraft Brakes
aircraftsystemstech.com ·
https://www.aircraftsystemstech.com › ...
return spring aviation braking from www.aircraftsystemstech.com
As it does, a return spring in the master cylinder move the piston, piston rod and rudder pedal back to the original position (brake off, pedal not depressed).
Peer comments on this reference comment:
| agree |
Jennifer Levey
: Your 'degressive spring' is on the right track.
28 mins
|
| agree |
philgoddard
33 mins
|
Discussion
On the contrary, a positive characteristic would increase the stored energy but make it more difficult to charge the spring accumulator.
And a return spring would simplify retrieving the neutral rudder alignment. The force required to push the control stick constantly reminds the pilot to regain the correct direction by releasing the stick.
Have a nice Sunday!
6. You probably can't afford my 'Sunday-working' surcharge for mechanical, electrical and aeronautical engineering lessons, so for everyone's sake this will be my last post in this thread.
- attributes to me a number of assertions that I have not made - less still 'claimed';
- is almost entirely 'off-topic' vis à vis Asker's question;
- in no way invalidates the explanation I have provided about this and Asker's previous question.
2. You persit in mis-interpreting (among other things ...) the expression '10-15 kg' in the only FR text we have found that uses the expression ressort à seuil (and in the same subject field - aeronautics).
3. You appear not to have considered the fact that a 'progressive' compression spring might have a stepped response curve - which would justify the use of ressort à seuil in the ST.
4. You have still not explained how a 'return spring' can be considered 'preferable' in Asker's context. The semantics of the ST require an expression that defines the characteristics of the ressort mentioned in the previous sentence; 'return spring' describes the function of a spring. The 'function' of any system component is necessarily 'invariable'; only the choice of its characteristics can qualified as 'preferable'.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jodel_D-140
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SAN_Jodel_D.140_Mousquetaire
http://richard.ferriere.free.fr/archives/essai/fournier_rf5....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_principal_axes#Vertic...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_dynamics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aircraft_flight_control_system
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fly-by-wire (not applicable for Jodel or rf-5)
https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/systems/how-does-a-y...
First you claimed that this is a mistranslation from German, without naming the German term and without correcting both German and French terms.
Then you postulate a "progressive spring" without inferring or justifying. This item has nothing to do with « ressort à seuil » and is superfluous. As a rule, tension springs and compression springs must not be loaded beyond their elastic limit as this will deform or break them. You can easily confirm this while stressing a spiral spring. If a compression spring is put on block, it will no longer function as spring, but as bar. This is true whatever the characteristic curve is. Furthermore, it is not explained why the spring weighs 10 - 15 kg and how the "dérapage" is thus compensated.
I also object to the disqualification of my statements as "mumbo-jumbo". I worked in the development of switchgears in the past, where I calculated springs for spring accumulators, among other things. We never had to resort to "progressive" characteristics.
That said, it is not inconceivable that the organe d’effort might incorporate other components allowing it to simulate the functions of a 'return spring', but that it not the purpose of Asker's ressort à seuil, which provided sensorial feedback to the pilot as she applies pressure on the control, whereas a return spring (physical or simulated) comes into play when she releases that pressure, and the physical control returns to the 'rest' position.
The question is clearly related to Asker's previous question here:
https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/aerospace-aviat...
and, taking the two questions together, it will be apparent to any engineer familiar with 'fly-by-wire' technologies that the previous question concerns a simple digital position-monitoring system fitted to the rudder pedals/bar, and the organe d’effort in the present question refers to a mechanical device fitted to the brake control, that provides the pilot with the appropriate "feel" forces.
Those interested in the basics of fly-by-wire might usefully start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fly-by-wire
Once we've understood these basics, it is clear that ressort à seuil is intended to refer to a variable-rate spring, which will give the pilot a sense of 'feel' quite similar to that on a conventional aircraft (such as the Fournier RF5 and Jodel aircraft.
But I still miss your explanation of how a progressive spring in a braking system (see context and my help for solution below) is supposed to dampen the yaw moment. Not only I would be very grateful for enlightenment, but also all other peers, especially the asker. This knowledge will help him a lot in the rest of the translation.
2. The phrase a very heavy spring with a variable mass is pseudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo and is not worthy of any effort wasted on explaining it
3. Kudoz is for help with terminology, and the time I spend here is given free of charge. I charge (a lot) more for lessons in aeronautical engineering, plus a 50% surcharge for those who can't even spell my name correctly.
4. With that in mind, and returning to Asker's question, I would like to know how you propose to translate the following two sentences using your return spring: L’organe d’effort comprend par exemple un ressort. De préférence, le ressort est un ressort à seuil., in a way that is coherent via à vis the preceding sentence and with established scientific, engineering and linguistic principles.
Help to solve my question: The yaw moment can be compensated by small lateral deflections of the side (yaw) rudder. In modern cruisers and military aircraft, this is controlled automatically by Dutch-Roll control circuits. That gets us back to the rudder, which in light aircraft 50 years ago still had to be controlled manually with the control stick (joy stick).
In Englisch: A return device enables the rudder not to be actuated during flight.
I hope neither the DE text, nor the EN translation, is ever virialized by ChatGPT or any other AI-based MT system. If true, the EN text is a license to kill!
I checked a large number of aircraft types to see whether whether « ressort à seuil » or "threshold spring" were present, but found no confirmation for this. Since these aircraft are controlled by cables, and as in this case, the rudders are returned (reset) by resetting devices, practically only tension springs can be considered. Therefore, I would not try to translate this questionable term and not specify the design, but stick more to the function. Jenniver herself noted that « ressort à seuil » could be a mistranslation from German (or another language?).
Still a sectional view for Jodel DR1050 with part list:
https://archive.ph/lEhxp/image
http://wayback.archive.org/web/20041017201354/http://jodel.c...
http://jodel.com/Images/dr1050mopen200.gif
Sorry, but not better solution available.
A similar sketch for DE380 shows the cables to the rudder :
http://www.flightglobal.com/airspace/media/generalaviationcu...